D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[ECMO3]

"If no one else tries, you are the best" Okay, sure.... but that doesn't mean you are doing any good. Because all it takes is a single other person to try to throw you aside.

Sure, but that PC gave up something else to do it.

There is no reason I should not be able to build a PC to outdo another class at what that class is supposed to be good at.

And, yeah, talking about the Fighter base class tends to focus on the fighter base class. I am not going to assume feats, because they are optional and the fighter might want other feats.

Ok. When talking about RAW, I am going to assume people will use all available RAW options to fix problems they have in the game.

It is optional whether my fighter chooses to use a Longbow or a Blowgun. If he uses a blowgun his damage is terrible that is not a problem with the blowgun. It is a problem in that I am chooosing not to use a better weapon.

I am going to always assume all classes have access to feats when discussing potential class builds.

Besides, most of the feats you asked for are giving spells, which kind of defeats the purpose.

If you want to cast that spell it does not defeat the purpose. It does exactly what you want to do/

If want to cast suggestion I should logically have to get the suggestion spell to do it (which is not available as a feat but that is an aside).

I am not assuming a specific subclass, because that only helps if you happen to play that subclass.

If you choose to play that subclass or choose to switch to it from another subclass at the level it becomes important. For example if I want suggestion on my battlemaster, when he becomes level 7 I switch to Eldritch Knight and pick up Suggestion.

Everything is a choice, but when saying a class can't do something you need to consider all the available choices IMO.

Also, other than taking spells as an Eldritch Knight, you are only looking at Battlemaster manuevers (which those skill manuevers are hard to justify.

Ok a couple things. Battlemaster maneuvers are available to all fighters through a fighting style and avaialable to all characters through a feat, so it does not need to cut into combat options at all (other than the feat or fighting style selection).

They are only useful some of the time, and cut into the Battlemaster's combat options which are useful far more often.), Cavalier... gaining proficiency?, Banneret Expertise (Note: Banneret is considered one of the worst fighter subclasses because of it s other abilities), Samurai gaining profiency and then getting a boost with elegant Courtier at level 7.

Banneret is a very weak subclass, but it can be built into a very strong social character. Not as strong as a Bard, Rogue or Ranger optimized for that, but better than just about anything else.

A Banneret with a 14/15 Charisma, 14 Wisdom and Superior Technique-commanding presence is going to outdo a Wizard by a wide margin in terms of social skills. Pick up martial adept and ASIs or feats to boost Charisma and you can hang with almost anyone.

Banneret is also on the fighter chassis, which means you are getting extra ASIs and more attacks and you can wear heavy armor and you have d10 hit dice. These other classes don't get all these things automatically.

So, I guess, the Samurai at level 7 is pretty good at Persuasion. That's it.

Yes. Do you want to be good at persuasion or not?

The Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer, Paladin... all of their subclasses are just as good as the Samurai, until level 7, and some of them (the Bard) wreck it, and exceed it even at level 7.

Only the Bard is as better than a Samaurai who optimizes for this because the Samarai has access to Commanding presence and two more feats than those other classes.

The bard is better hands down.

Really? What subclasses is that wizard using? Oh, it doesn't matter? Okay what feats are they using?

I have actually played a Wizard similar to this a lot. I have never went all out melee, I alway dump constitution to 10 and usually use a race to get some proficiencies, but I am still selling out on melee as far as spell selection.

If you are are actually optimizing for melee on point buy you would play a Bladesinger Half Elf. S8 D17 C16 I16 W8 CH8

You would get Elf Weapon training and take 4 of Whip, Rapier, Scimitar, Short Sword, Hand Crossbow. You would take whichever one you did not take at start at 2nd level.

You would take Elven Accuracy at 4th level, dex ASI 8th, Metamagic Adpet-Quicken Spell at 12th, Intelligence ASIs 16th and 19th level.

Oh, it doesn't matter? Okay, well they did end up locking in, what, five spells? Let's say 10 spells devoted to melee.

At 10th level the following are the important spells you have prepared:

False Life
Mage Armor (unless you found magic studded)
Shield
Protection from Evil and good
Silvery Barbs
Absorb Elements
Blur
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Steel Wind Strike

Those are the spells you will actually use. You would have others prepared, probably Shadowblade, Blink and Dispel Magic, but these would rarely be used.


At 10th level, you are typically going to use all your 4th level slots and some 3rd level slots and some of your 5th level slots for False Life.

Contingency is at 11th level, so the wizard with no defined feats, no defined subclass, only has a mere 16 other spells they can take. Oh, and 4 cantrips

5 cantrips at 10th level, not 4

Cantrips would be Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, Blade Ward, Sword Burst and Chill Touch. You could replace Sword Burst with something else like Mage Hand, but if you were optimizing for melee you would't. The rest of those are pretty much required if you want to be able to better optimized martials.

So how many exploration spells can they get with that?

If you are optimized for melee none.

Let's say 8 exploration spells, things like Fly, mage hand, light, find familiar, that make them really good at exploration

Find Familiar because it is a ritual.

Not fly, you can't afford to concentrate on it in combat and at 10th level most of those spell slots are needed for False Life. You could give up Blink, Shadowblade or Dispel Magic to put it on the list for non-combat use, but those situational spells are highly relevant in the situations where you want to use them and the slot to cast it is still a high cost.

Later on, at 11th level you can fly for a minute at a time with Tasha's Otherwordly Guise when it comes online as there is less cost to using that because it is a combat spell replacing something like Blur.

, and let's say they take some social spells too, things like Minor Illusion, Comprehend Language, Disguise Self, Borrowed Knowledge, Enhance ability.

You do not have room to prepare or cast most of those spells if you want to be optimized for melee and truely dominate that pillar.

You also don't have the slots for them if you are in hard contact 6+ fights a day. You are burning a lot of slots on Shield and on False Life between fights. Then you are burning some more on PEG, Blur, Absorb Elements, Misty Step and Silvery Barbs during fights.

Comprehend Languages as a ritual is ok of course.

And of course you still probably have some room for some AOE and ranged spells, right?

Not if you are optimizing for melee. Your high level slots are mostly being used for False Life.

The Character I discribe above is generally the best melee build in the game at 10th level IMO. Better than any Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger or any other.

You can do things different and give up a little melee power for a nice payoff elsewhere and when I play a melee Wizard that is what I do. But if you do that you will not be as good at melee as the character described above.

So, let's just take the basics. THe Wizard is better at melee than the fighter with those spells and build choices you left vague. They can also cast Borrowed Knowledge and Enhance Ability to get 1 hour of profiency and advantage on any check they want, make them a diviner wizard so they can swap a bad die roll out.

No they are not better than a fighter if they are using slots on borrowed knowlege. They just aren't. They need a ton of slots for shield and False Life and if they are using those slots for other things they are weak.

If they are a diviner they can only make 1 attack a turn and will suck at melee.

They have a familiar and maybe even Arcane eye for remote scouting,

Yes familiar, no Arcane Eye if they want to be awesome at melee.

the ability to bridge language gaps,

The ability to read and understand languages, provided a 10 minute notice. Not the ability to speak any.

probably invisibility, AOEs, access to light and remotely able to interact with the environment to avoid traps...

No, No, No, No

How is the fighter better at them than social and exploration stuff again? Proficiency and a high score?

Yes. A Much higher score. The Wizard has an 8.

No they aren't. Casters brutalize combat. They need to build to handle melee combat, sure, but they have strong ranged options with a single cantrip, and then they simply need things like Hold Person, Sleep, Hypnotic Pattern, Hideous Laughter.

They do not brutilize combat. Fighters do. Except Sleep all the things you mention have a save and none are encounter enders.

Hold Person is extremely powerful if the enemy targeted is a humanoid but it is one enemy and they save every single turn. If you happen to be fighting a BBEG and that BBEG is a humanoid without LR it is huge, but the main reason it is huge is cause melee characters are getting crits on him for the round or two he is paralyzed. In a large encounter it is not nearly as powerful.

Sleep is extremely powerful if the enemy is not immune and they have low enough hit points to land it, but most enemies aren't and when they are the battle is nearly over. It is also hard to use without causing freindly fire.

HP is on of the most overated spells in the game. If DMs play smart HP is weak. The enemies simply wake up their allies. As long as 1 enemy saves it should never be more than 1 lost action per bad guy and damage automatically ends it. If you use HP on 10 Orcs at 5th level about 7 should fail statistically and those 7 should lose one attack each (maybe 2 for a couple of them if you run individual initiative and the turn order is not in their favor). That is powerful but not overwhelming. If you use it on a lone BBEG he is incapacitated until someone damages him, which is probably the next allies turn. Fear is the real OP spell at 3rd level .... as long as enemies are not immune to frightened, and that is actually an encounter ender most of the time.

Seriously, I had a DM who almost wanted to ban Hideous Laughter, it is a level 1 spell and if it lands the enemy is completely incapable of acting.

They save every turn and every time they take damage and they can still move (crawling).

I use THL a lot and it is a good spell, but it is situational. You can't use it well on a single target because he is going to save fast as your allies will all be damaging him. It is a cast it on one guy while the party concentrates on the other kind of spell and it is good at that. But it is also a 1st level spell that does not upcast, so you are competing with Mage Armor, and Shield (and possibly Silvery Barbs). Run out of 1st level slots and start using THL at 2nd level and it is extremely weak.

I think Cause Fear is generally a lot more powerful in combat. It doesn't take away actions like THL but it does restrict movement more effectively, it lasts longer and it upcasts.

I think Dissonant Whispers is better than either of those on a 1st level slot. Cast it at someone in melee with your allies, he fails and runs away taking AOOs and then being out of position and it is not concentration. If I am looking for offense out of a Wizard with 1st level slots I am looking at ways to get this one (most commonly Fey Touched).

Sure, they can save with advantage if they take damage, but you can just point and take a powerful foe off the board. Blindness can ruin an opponent. Have you seen someone set off a synaptic static dealing fireball damage while also debuffing the enemy with a -1d6 to all attacks, checks and concentration saves? Which by the way, stacks with BAne that is a -1d4 to all attacks, saves and checks.

I've seen all those things. Synaptic Static is great and it is an intelligence save. By the time you are getting it though a -1d6 on attacks is not overwhelming. A nice bonus sure if they fail the save but not an encounter ender.

I personally was told by a DM once that a fight would have led to a TPK for my entire party... except I was playing an artificer, and I cast web.

I had this happen many, many times. But I have enemies beat good spells too.

I would have had a TPK except my Ranger used Beguiling Twist on a White Dragon after he failed to frighten me. I made my save against Dragon Fear, he didn't when I twisted back on him.

We would have had a TPK another time except my fighter decimated a Lich we were up against. Every other member of my party was paralyzed (I made my save, maybe because of indomitable). The Lich who already had forsight on himself then used time stop to buff himself with Haste and something other spell (can't remember). On my turn I cast dispel Magic (Drow High Magic), knocking out Haste, making him lose a turn and also taking down forsight as well with a good Charisma Check. Then I went action surge Booming Balde, War Magic Attack and did the same next turn.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm a fan of diegetic explanations for remarkable abilities. "Being a protagonist" isn't diegetic. Being favored by the gods or having magic at your disposal is (and kind of amounts to the same thing). Getting good with training is, too, and there's a lot of fighter and rogue out there that is just purely "did training, got good."

Batman and all the Robin and Batgirls are "did training, got good"

Not plot power.
The fact that there are 4 Robins and 2-3 Speedys means being a nonmagical butt-whooper is a matter of training not author support.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Good lord this is a massive post. I don't mind trying to respond to a large post, but this is far too much. I'm splitting this into multiple responses, there is just no feasible way to do this and keep it readable.

No because she does not enough spells prepared or enough spells automatically added to her book to be good at all 3 pillars.

As an example - tell me what abilities, proficiencies and spells you are prepare on your 3rd level Wizard to be good at all 3 pillars with a 16 Constitution.

At level three? Not going to be much I can do, but I can still do quite a bit.

So, 16 Int, 16 Con, 13 Charisma, 12 Wisdom, 10 Dex, 8 Strength
I want to be good at everything? We'll take Deception, Perception, Stealth, and Intuition.
Race could add a few things, but I'm not building a full character, lest I be accused of cherry picking.
Spells: 3 cantrips, of which I can change one on a long rest. So, Ray of Frost, Mage Hand, and Minor Illusion for your standard day
Invisibility and Suggestion, with Find Familiar, Comprehend Languages, Magic Missile, Grease, Silent Image, Ice Knife, Sleep, Disguise Self

That is a fairly solid footing. It isn't perfect, but I AM only a 3rd level character.

The issue with using spells for non-combat pillars is they tend to be narrowly focused and high cost either in time or in resources.

So the Wizard above can have find familiar and detect magic and identify and Comprehend Languages and Friends without making a big cut into her combat spells (friends is a small cut but not a big one).

But these are all situational and do not equate to being good at an entire pillar in the same way a high Wisdom, Charisma or Dexterity do with associated proficiencies.

For example

Social Pillar:
A 12 Charisma (doable on a 16 Int, 14 Dex, 16 Con point buy Wizard with most races) with Freinds can make you very effective at Charisma ability rolls, better than a Paladin or Fighter with a 16 Charisma at 3rd level. But that is only on those checks where you have time to cast it ahead of time without the enemy knowing AND when it does not matter if the enemy knows they were influenced by magic. It is highly situational. Meanwhile a 16 Charisma with just a single proficiency in Persuasion or Deception is going to perform roughly just as good overall and better in a wider array of circumstances.

Why are you taking Friends? All it does is give you advantage and it turns the enemy hostile. It is a horrible thing to use. Also, you are being very direct.

Disguise Self allows me to look like anyone. While the merchant might not talk to me about the recent weird disturbances, he is likely to talk to the captain of the guard, or a famous bard, or any number of other individuals.
Minor Illusion allows for you to throw your voice, and make any number of sounds. Want to freak someone out? Drag someone into the back room. Minor Illusion horrid screaming, then minor illusion a bloody rag that you minor illusion catching on fire as you walk back out. Or use Silent Image instead, to do all sorts of other things.
And if you need brute force. Suggestion.

Finally, with proficiency in deception, and an ally giving you the help action, you can not only sell these things but work to convince people of all sorts of things.

You can cast Comprehend Languages as a ritual, so you can read any text and understand any enemy. But it takes 10 minutes, and you can't talk to him. Again highly situational.

This example Wizard also has an 8 Wisdom and a poor insight.

So, if you need it faster than 10 minutes.. don't cast it as a ritual. But, counter-point... who else can speak or read ANY POSSIBLE language? Your paladin with a 16 cha and proficiency in persuasion is good, but if he doesn't speak goblin, it is kind of moot, he can't participate in talking to the goblin chief. And there are absolutely languages in the game that you CANNOT take.

Most DMs don't bother, but they do use ancient scripts, which also makes this good for exploration.

Exploration Pillar:

Find Familiar is great at scouting within the relatively large range of telepathy, but that is all it is great at. Your familiar is not going to pass a survival check to find tracks, it is not going to pass a nature check to identify a plant (although your Wizard might). If you take the better familiars for combat they are going to fail a lot of stealth checks. And they can only be used while they are alive, which is going to be a very short time. Also if they are found and killed now the enemies you are scouting are on alert (because when they kill your cat or spider he disappears and returns to the Feywild or lower planes), so they immediately know someone is scouting them. Still a good option, but highly situational.

Only scouting? The single most useful thing that you can do in the exploration pillar. Also, took inivisibility for a reason. Finding tracks is only helpful if I'm... tracking something. Which is generally pretty rare. Also, if I am tracking something, I can turn my familiar into a snake to follow its scent, or any number of other animals. And why am I identifying plants? Sure, some obscure task that requires the nature roll I'll ONLY have my high intelligence for a +3 and advantage, and my familiar can let me see through their eyes. Additionally, help action, again. Things like the familiar figuring what the plant smells like or other tasks that can help identify it, if I need to do this for whatever reason.

She also can't climb anything because her strength is an 8.

Yes they can. Climbing does not require an athletics check. Re-read the rules.

Detect Magic as a ritual lets you easily find magic traps as a ritual with a 10 minute casting. But someone with thieves tools or investigation proficiency is going to find it most of the time in 6 seconds and they can find the non-magical ones as well.

I'm level 3, how many magic traps are we dealing with? At this level we are usually dealing with mechanical traps. Also, this is why I took perception.

Also, also, this is why I took mage hand. Sure, that investigation roll might find a trap, but my mage hand rolling a 10 lbs ball on all the surfaces finds and safely triggers traps. It also counters traps on doors, traps in chests, traps under rugs, depending on how much "poke with 10 ft pole" I do, this can counter a massive variety of traps, until the DM starts specifically requiring more weight to counter.

So, even if I'm not as good at spotting traps, I can safely avoid FAR more of them. There is also the utility of the Grease spell to consider.

Leveled spells to be good at non-combat:
Ok, so we haven't really started adding leveled spells here and we have a wizard that is useful in those two pillars in some narrowly defined situations. The Wizard has a 16 intelligence so she 6 spells she can prepare and has two 2nd level spells in her book.

Because of her awful Wisdom she probably needs detect thoughts to cover her dieficiencies in insight, although this conflicts with Friends because they are both concentration .... so we will take Charm Person too. With a failed save and followed up by detect thoughts that will make us actually good at the social pillar in a wade variety of sitatuoins, as long as it is a humanoid and we have time to cast them and it is not one of the fey creatures that is likely to pass the save. I would argue it is still a bit situational, but it is good.

She has 8 first level spells, 4 re going to be rituals she needs, 1 is Charm Person she needs to be good at the social pillar. That leaves 4 more in her book.

I did forget Detect Thoughts. PRobably drop sleep for it. While sleep is good for instances, Detect Thoughts is going to be better for a few options.

Now the Combat Pillar:

So to be good at the other two pillars we built our Wizard with: Friends, Charm Person, Detect Magic, Identify Comprehend Languages, Find Familiar and detect Thoughts. She is running around with a cat because without that she is flat awful at the exploration pillar, so the familiar is of limited use in combat.

She has 4 more spells in her book (3 1st, 1 2nd) and 2 more Cantrips to learn to spend on the combat pillar. One can be second level.

So sheild and mage armor are no brainers. That leaves one. I could argue most Wizards need Absorb Elements too to be good at the combat pillar, but at level 3 and with a 16 Constitution I will say she doesn't. I am going to go with Cause Fear.

She probably wants Misty Step as her other second level spell, like Absorb Elements, I wil[l say she can get by without it since she has a 16 Con. I am going to say she can take web.

Her last 2 cantrips are whatever, Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp, but pick any 2.

In terms of 6 prepared it is going to be: Charm Person, Mage Armor, Shield, Cause Fear, Web and Detect Thoughts.

We will just ignore the fact she has a 9 passive perception and pretend that does not matter for combat.

I didn't bother with shield and mage armor. Stick to distance with ray of frost. Magic Missile is good for damage, ice knife is good for AOE. Grease, SIlent Image, and Minor illusion can act as both control, and as defenses (the classic Minor Illusion a box with firing slits to give disadvantage to hit you)

Finally the adventuring day:

We will say this character has 2 social interactions with a humanoid, one exploration attempt and 6 combats of 3 rounds each.

So this character is dependent on Charm Person and Detect Thoughts to be genuinely good at the social pillar, which is two slots on every interaction with every humanoid. But when the saving throw fails she is actually really good. She can be ok too when she can cast friends and she is not very good other than that. So to be good she is going to burn 2 first level and 2 second level spells a day.

We will say the ability to scout remotely and read all writing account for the other deficiencies in the exploration pillar and call that good. She is good at the exploration pillar without burning slots.

In terms of combat, we have 4 first and 3 second level slots a day and when we are not using them we are bad. We are going to say she has Mage Armor that uses a slot, Charm Person and Detect Thoughts twice a day. This leaves 1 first level and 1 second level slot per day to spend on 18 rounds of combat .... and this includes Arcane Recovers.

Swap the abilities around on this Wizard, Put ta 10 in Constitution and a 14 in Wisdom and Charisma and now you have a Wizard that can actually be good at all 3 pillars.

Alternatively, play a Fighter with good Wisdom and Charisma and you are just about as good in all three pillars. The reason why is you are better in combat without expending spell slots.

A fighter good in Wisdom and Charisma? You still have the same ability scores, so to get that...

16 Str, 10 Con, 13 Charisma, 16 Wisdom, 12 Dex, 8 INT?

You can get one or the other better than the wizard I made, but not both. And that's something you missed at this whole exercise, the wizard was achieving in every field. Stealthy enough to scout, familiar boosts scouting, magic supports social interactions, and offers options impossible for the martials, and combat control and damage are still solid.

Meanwhile, you want a fighter with 16 str, 16 wis, 16 cha, as well as persuasion, insight, perception, investigation, survival, nature... and they still can't look like anyone, still can't read minds, still can't turn invisible, still can't auto-damage an enemy, still can't use illusions to deceive the enemy...

And next level? The Wizard gets two more spells. Then they get 3rd level spells, then two more of those, then 4th level spells, then two more of those.

Meanwhile the fighter... I guess they could raise their wisdom to get get another +1 on their insight, won't be as good as reading minds. They could get a +1 on their charisma for persuasion, might not help as much as looking like someone else, or allow them to communicate with someone they don't share a language with.

Sure, level 3 that fighter is doing okay. LEvel 5 even, they can still be relevant. Level 9? Level 13? And, don't forget, the wizard is also able to take feats to get more spells, scribe more spells into their spellbook, get magic items that give them more spells. Plus, I could have taken a race to get more spells and/or skills on top of what I listed.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Batman and all the Robin and Batgirls are "did training, got good"

Not plot power.
The fact that there are 4 Robins and 2-3 Speedys means being a nonmagical butt-whooper is a matter of training not author support.

Sure. And nonmagical butt-whooping is currently supported and could be supported further.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Right but spells are VERY limited, both in the number you have prepared and the number you use.

A 3rd level Wizard can cast knock 3 times a day (including Arcane Recovery) and she to not prepare something else to do it. A Rogue with thieves tools can try to pick a lock 14,400 times in one day while not losing a single use of sneak attack. If they are an Arcane Trickster or a Thief then can try ot over 28,000 times in a day.

And how many locked doors do you encounter? That's always the trick, isn't it. Plus, knock is a brute force method. Acid Splash to melt the lock, send your familiar to get the keys, disguise self to go and get the keys yourself.

This is not true. Rogues, Sorcerers, Clerics and Druids can not get extra attack at all. Wizards, Bards and Warlocks can do it only by making specific subclass choices and forgoing other options and no class can get 3+ weapon attacks per turn.

Extra attack enables a fighter to divest in combat in a fashion that no other class can. I can start with a 16 in my attack stat and put nothing at all into the combat pillar for 20 levels, make choices to boost other pillars and still be good at the combat pillar at every level all the way to 20th level. The only other classes that can do that are Paladin and Ranger. Not even Barbarian or Rogue can do that. Casters MUST put resources into the combat pillar to be good at combat. At a minimum they need to select and prepare spells for combat instead of other spells.

Warlocks can do it with a single cantrip and a single invocation.

Rogues use sneak attack instead of extra attack.

CLerics and Druids can both end up combining Shillelagh with a spell like booming blade. I had my druid swinging for 3d8+5 causing an additional 3d8 if the enemy moved. Combine that with an area of effect they want to move out of or away from (like flaming sphere), and that is 6d8+5 or 32 damage with an at-will attack. Fightering swinging three times with a d8 weapon is 3d8+21 34.5, I was an average of 2 damage off, and that isn't counting using my bonus action to slam the sphere into the enemy. Which I didn't do often, as I was a Dream Druid and was often healing people with my bonus action instead. I let the warlock blast them away from me to trigger the extra damage.

Also, why can't the barbarian just stick with a 16 strength? They get extra attack and rage damage, is it just because of that 11th level boost they don't get?

Barbarians are weaker than fighters and unlike fighters, I would say Barbarians need feats to stay good at combat. Paladins don't get three attacks but they do get divine smite and without even shoosing combat oriented spells, subclasses or fighting styles this makes them good at combat at all levels.

In point buy I play characters with a 10 Con more often than characters with a 12 and I have only played 2 with a 14 in the last 2 years (have not played one at all with higher than a 14). I think that is why I am happier with my non-casters.

I don't think a bard needs a 12 Constitution, but they do need a 12 constitution to have almost as many hit points as a figthter with a 10 (still actually 1 point behind). The point I was making is yes a Bard can get extra attack (a 2nd attack only) and they can get a fighting style (very limited choices) and this gives them the ability to be on par with a basic fighter in terms of melee damage for 6 levels out of 20 (levels 3, 4 and 6-10). However compared they need a higher constitution to match that fighters hit points and be as good at melee overall.

THis is kind of rambly. You aren't supporting any of this, just stating it as fact. Why don't fighter's need to improve their strength, but Barbarians need to improve their strength AND get feats? Why are we ignoring sneak attack? Okay, fine, you like low con characters, yet you are insisting that bards need higher to match fighter hp, and are focused on fighting styles and extra attack to be good in combat melee damage. They don't need that though. It is nice, if you want to focus on it, but you can achieve similiar damage with other options.

A creation Bard is not good at combat at all between levels 3 and 5 and they are not great at combat above level 12 unless you have very few encouters a day.

A big weakness on this subclass is their very poor armor class and very limited protection options in terms of spells. You don't have PEG, Absorb Elements or Shield. You can shore this up a bit by taking Shield with magical secrets and medium armor proficiency as a feat but then you are giving up other options and hurting your spell DC.

When I play a single-class Bard into high level I am usually doing one or both of these two things or I am spamming Slivery Barbs for defense (and it is not that good at that).

Bards are the most fragile class in the game despite the D8 hit points.

Studded leather and a good dex gives you 15 AC, that's plenty for a back-liner. And they aren't good between levels 3 and 5? Are you just not aware of Dissonant whispers, Faerie fire, bane, bless, sleep is going out I'll agree, but you are getting hold person, heat metal, phantasmal force.. heck, 5th level gives you Enemies Abound, hypnotic pattern, stinking cloud. I've seen each of these spells end a fight.

Sure, the bard isn't going to be directly dealing the highest damage, but if the bard turns the enemy brute against their allies, they have canceled that enemies attacks and increased damage on the opposing side, plus, even if the spell is ended, the enemy might still continue ripping into each other.

Yet a 10th level fighter with a 10 constitution can get hit by it 10 times and aside from not bruning to death can be totally cured of 10 3rd degree burns with an hour of rest?

The little 2nd degree burn I got on my finger last Saturday is still not healed - Again impossibilities if this is what you consider Firebolt to be.

Impossibilities shared by every single PC in the game.

And yet, if I ask for the fighter to leap tall buildings, or smash stone with his attacks... well, that is impossible and not allowed.

No it is ideal. The strongest characters should be casters. This is consistent with the thematics and the story in fantasy RPGs.

No one runs around saying Bromir or Frodo are as strong as Gandalf. They have their abilities an those carry the day at times, but it terms of raw power casters should be in a field of their own.

It is late, I have another sixteen pages of responses from you. But this? This is wrong. This is fundamentally wrong. You WANT casters to be more powerful than everyone else in a team game? No thanks. I came to be a team member, not your caddy.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Being a protagonist isn't something that exists in reality, so yes, being fictional is inherently beyond natural.

I guess it's kind of an open question if "natural" is the kind of thing we want to work towards.

I'm a fan of diegetic explanations for remarkable abilities. "Being a protagonist" isn't diegetic. Being favored by the gods or having magic at your disposal is (and kind of amounts to the same thing). Getting good with training is, too, and there's a lot of fighter and rogue out there that is just purely "did training, got good."

Any explanation that relies on plot armor, protagonist status, and narrative or gameplay structures aren't part of the diegetics, and, for me, they really take me out of the experience of playing a character and put me more in the experience of writing a story. Which can be fun, but not honestly what I'm lookin' for in D&D.

Okay, look.

Any 'diegetic' explanation for literally anything in fiction?

Came from a writer.

Favored by the gods?

Writer.

Training?

Writer.

Was of woman born?

Writer.

This frankly bewildering line of discussion is not and has never been simply saying 'plot armor' or 'protagonist'. It is because someone straight up dismissed the 'diegetic' (is this the new verisimilitude; a word misused as a bludgeon against the fantastic?) explanation for Batman's success,; his superior planning, as supernatural because they can't accept that as an explanation.

Which is exactly the problem at hand: people seeing something they personally can't accept--up to and including things normal humans can and routinely absolutely do like 'come up with a contingency plan' or 'swim in the Misssissippi' and immediately not only decide they're humanly impossible, but actively supernatural regardless of what actually matters: the in-universe mechanics and contexts of those abilities.

Batman's planning is a completely mundane product of his ingenuity.

Wolverine's healing factor is the result of his naturally occurring (in some continuities) X-gene.

Juggernaut's Crimson bands of Cytorrak are magical.

Why?

Because the writer said so. No matter how brutally some people may want to torture words, especially 'magic' and 'supernatural' to be a catch-all for 'fictional'.

 

[Minigiant]

Sure. And nonmagical butt-whooping is currently supported and could be supported further.

Exactly.
Nonmagical butt-whooping is currently supported.
However only in a very narrow scope that grognards (who don't even play 5e) were okay with.

This thread is another appeal to grognards to widen the scope by claiming the nonmagical is supernatural.

We are essentially saying turkey is vegan to make the dinner party all vegan for the vegans who cancelled on the party years ago.

 

[NotAYakk]

Plausibility has nothing to do with the supernatural.

He's not actual warping reality, he's winning because of author fiat says he prepared for the threat the author put him up against. There's nothing supernatural about that in or out of universe unless you want to say 'being fictional' is supernatural.

Reality is being warped for him. Constantly and continuously. Almost every action he does is not something a normal person could do without reality warping to make it possible.

You can be fictional without that being the case.

I mean, they could say "He isn't supernatural, he can just lift 1000 tonnes because he exercises a lot" in the fiction. The fiction still describes someone with supernatural (superhuman) powers, even if in the fiction it isn't described as supernatural.

Everything batman does is basically that.

If that is what you mean by a "non-supernatural martial" character, then it involves the Player (author proxy) having the power to warp the game reality so their character is superhuman (or the DM doing the same?)

You can write characters in fiction that don't have reality warping as a core part of their identity. They don't have insane coincidences that ferry them along. But batman, almost all of his achievements come from that plot armor.

 

[Minigiant]

Reality is being warped for him. Constantly and continuously. Almost every action he does is not something a normal person could do without reality warping to make it possible.

You can be fictional without that being the case.

I mean, they could say "He isn't supernatural, he can just lift 1000 tonnes because he exercises a lot" in the fiction. The fiction still describes someone with supernatural (superhuman) powers, even if in the fiction it isn't described as supernatural.

Everything batman does is basically that.

If that is what you mean by a "non-supernatural martial" character, then it involves the Player (author proxy) having the power to warp the game reality so their character is superhuman (or the DM doing the same?)

You can write characters in fiction that don't have reality warping as a core part of their identity. They don't have insane coincidences that ferry them along. But batman, almost all of his achievements come from that plot armor.

That's Meme Batman.

Batman in official media is grounded in reality.
Batman in memes is a supernatural reality warper.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Reality is being warped for him.

Show me some in-universe proof and not a meta supposition due to the writer being a writer.

Because otherwise, this is just a gross treatment of the concept of fiction.