D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[dave2008]

Depending on the power level of the magical, I think there comes a point where at the bare minimum both of those cannot exist at the same level.

I never said they should be the same level, in fact I have explicitly and repeatedly said the opposite. I think the confusion may be that I am not trying to say you can't have a type magical martial along side a nonmagical martial at the same level. I haven't talked about that because I assumed it was obvious. I was clearly wrong.

At some point, as you stated, the power level requires everyone to magical (of some type).

So to be clear (and this is just for martials) you would have:

Levels 1 - 10 (or 1-20)	Levels 11 - 20 (or 21-40)
non-magical martial (does all the awesome things batman and hawkeye can do)	martial gains innate magic (make martial abilities epic or similar) but does mundane types of things (run, jump, throw, etc.)
magical martial (cast spells or empowers abilities with magical energy)	more of the same

 

[Chaosmancer]

They are for whole game design, but I was only talking about one aspect. My thought: get martials correct and then modified casters to fit the martial model. So you balance the casters around the martials, not the other way around.

This isn't a bad idea, but I think it is too late.

I honestly do feel like they have, largely, gotten Casters Correct. I've played in all caster groups, or mostly caster groups multiple times, and it feels good. It doesn't feel too powerful usually, and the few issues are more specific spells than anything else. In a few cases, I've actually argued for increasing power in the form of more options for classes like the druid and cleric (they need more diverse spell selection)

So... if we mostly have casters correct... why not balance martials around that? Trying to get martials "correct" involves figuring out where they should be on the scale, is Aragorn level 4 or level 18? People are going to vastly disagree, but you could balance a game either way. I think it is better to look from where we are though, than try and rebalance that.

 

[FrogReaver]

I never said they should be the same level, in fact I have explicitly and repeatedly said the opposite.

Right, I think some think that’s what you mean, despite those other posts. I may be wrong though.

 

[dave2008]

This isn't a bad idea, but I think it is too late.

I am talking conceptually, not anything for a current game. This is what I would do if I was to ever write my own D&D hack

 

[Chaosmancer]

Skilled is not mastery
Preficncy is not mastery

Mastery is Mastery

What counts as mastery differs from edition to edition

Well, in 5th edition I'd say you have mastered the Battleaxe if you are proficient in it, have the dueling style, and... that's about it. Because there isn't anything else to get.

So, Proficiency + style = Mastery, because there isn't anything more. If you want more, you need to do better than defining mastery as mastery because every edition is different.

 

[Chaosmancer]

They don’t need to be for the plot to be the same. Martials can still recruit the same Fey Lord without planeshift. And if they don’t, the plot isn’t changed. They still go on to the great battle.

If you really mean every element of the fiction may not turn out exactly the same then sure, but that’s a trivial difference IMO.

If you can change the elements of the fiction, then it isn't trivial. What if the battle is in three days? The spellcaster can cast Planeshift NOW, and potentially use the Feywild time shenanigans to their advantage. The martial has to dismiss the idea, because the only way to even get to the Feywild is spend weeks searching for a high level spellcaster to cast the spell for them.

So one group gets to recruit an ally the DM didn't consider, the other doesn't.

That is a MAJOR impact on the narrative. And it happens consistently, especially since the solution you provide for the martials... is to seek supernatural help from an NPC. The answer is STILL the supernatural, just begging for help instead of utilizing it yourself.

 

[Minigiant]

Well, in 5th edition I'd say you have mastered the Battleaxe if you are proficient in it, have the dueling style, and... that's about it. Because there isn't anything else to get.

So, Proficiency + style = Mastery, because there isn't anything more. If you want more, you need to do better than defining mastery as mastery because every edition is different.

Feats

 

[Clint_L]

How are you defining "balance"?

I see the game as pretty well balanced. All classes are viable right up to level 20, meaning that they can make meaningful contributions that have the potential to determine the outcome of combat or a situation. But it doesn't mean that they are all equally good at everything.

So let's look at level 20. Are we balancing around DPR? Because in that case, martial classes are ahead. Should we therefore be buffing casting classes?

What about survivability? Be cause, again, martial classes.

General utility, spell casters are way ahead.

Non-combat situations again favour casting classes, plus rogues.

When you look at overall tier rankings, we see a broad mix of classes represented at each level. General consensus seems to be that paladin is the best class in 5e - I would consider them a martial class, though obviously they are a half-caster.

So I'm not sure what the criteria are for "balance." I can tell you that in our current party, which is using the 2024 rules, the core group of barbarian, druid, artificer, and monk all seem pretty equal in terms of meaningful contributions.

 

[FrogReaver]

If you can change the elements of the fiction, then it isn't trivial. What if the battle is in three days? The spellcaster can cast Planeshift NOW, and potentially use the Feywild time shenanigans to their advantage. The martial has to dismiss the idea, because the only way to even get to the Feywild is spend weeks searching for a high level spellcaster to cast the spell for them.

So one group gets to recruit an ally the DM didn't consider, the other doesn't.

That is a MAJOR impact on the narrative. And it happens consistently, especially since the solution you provide for the martials... is to seek supernatural help from an NPC. The answer is STILL the supernatural, just begging for help instead of utilizing it yourself.

Then any difference in capabilities is a plot element and that’s something I firmly disagree with.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Exhibit 1: the jump rules.

How do those get in the way? Not even sure why you need them, but they have never gotten in the way in our games