Yeah, and it's terrible on the app.
The Mechanical Impact of -5/+10
Yeah, and it's terrible on the app.
CapnZapp
Legend
Like with every GWM analysis before, I miss the real actual play advice that matters.
Never use GWM without Advantage, unless enemy AC is atrocious. Of course, good players make sure to gain advantage all the time, so this is not exactly a change of tactics. One easy tip: attack unseen.
One way to comprehensively break the feat is to be a Battlemaster Fighter using the Precision maneuver. The secret is that Precision is much more economical than most maneuvers. Most maneuvers need you to spend a die each time you stand to gain the benefit. Precision's benefit is avoiding a miss, and you only need to spend a die when you miss and want to turn it into a hit. What this means in practice is that your dice lasts much longer.
Add just a little spice (Bless, a magical weapon with a bonus, what have you) and you will find that your new feat can double your damage output, and often will.
It's when you see with your own eyes your player hit with three attacks at level eight or so* for something like 55 damage round after round at distances up to 120 feet, that you realize the developers never really played the game the way your players do, and that you need to do WotCs job for them and remove that feat (Crossbow Expert).
In light of this, I'm not sure what the point of analyzing the feat in isolation is. No driven player ever uses the feat in situations where you actually need to pay the unmitigated -5 to gain the +10.
*) Referencing my player's Ranger/Fighter build that gets to three attacks ahead of the fighter. Sorry, it was a while ago so I'm a bit hazy on the details. Damage is 1d6+5+10 times three for ~55 damage.
Which is nice and all, but the real sadness?
Without the feat, that damage would have been 30 lower, which is less than half. (The slightly increased miss chance means that's pessimistic in real play. And other classes can match the damage).
Still, the -5/+10 completely invalidate a lot of character concepts simply by virtue of existing. Put in simple terms: if you're a fighter in a feat-enabled game, you can forget about competitive DPR if you have other feats or concepts in mind than what can be used with GWM or CE.
And that's what's broken here.
Never use GWM without Advantage, unless enemy AC is atrocious. Of course, good players make sure to gain advantage all the time, so this is not exactly a change of tactics. One easy tip: attack unseen.
One way to comprehensively break the feat is to be a Battlemaster Fighter using the Precision maneuver. The secret is that Precision is much more economical than most maneuvers. Most maneuvers need you to spend a die each time you stand to gain the benefit. Precision's benefit is avoiding a miss, and you only need to spend a die when you miss and want to turn it into a hit. What this means in practice is that your dice lasts much longer.
Add just a little spice (Bless, a magical weapon with a bonus, what have you) and you will find that your new feat can double your damage output, and often will.
It's when you see with your own eyes your player hit with three attacks at level eight or so* for something like 55 damage round after round at distances up to 120 feet, that you realize the developers never really played the game the way your players do, and that you need to do WotCs job for them and remove that feat (Crossbow Expert).
In light of this, I'm not sure what the point of analyzing the feat in isolation is. No driven player ever uses the feat in situations where you actually need to pay the unmitigated -5 to gain the +10.
*) Referencing my player's Ranger/Fighter build that gets to three attacks ahead of the fighter. Sorry, it was a while ago so I'm a bit hazy on the details. Damage is 1d6+5+10 times three for ~55 damage.
Which is nice and all, but the real sadness?
Without the feat, that damage would have been 30 lower, which is less than half. (The slightly increased miss chance means that's pessimistic in real play. And other classes can match the damage).
Still, the -5/+10 completely invalidate a lot of character concepts simply by virtue of existing. Put in simple terms: if you're a fighter in a feat-enabled game, you can forget about competitive DPR if you have other feats or concepts in mind than what can be used with GWM or CE.
And that's what's broken here.
Last edited:
To summarize what Capp always says:
Something, something, if a character invests a tonne of resources into something they'll be really good at it, something something broken.
Capp, I ask you kindly to please not derail this with your agenda.
No! No derail! Bad Quartz! *Spritz*
W
WhosDaDungeonMaster
Guest
What is your agenda? I don't even see a point to this thread. Assuming your table is accurate, why bother posting it? I've had players use both GWM and SS using the -5/+10 and haven't had any issues with it so far.
So, I repeat:
What is your agenda?
I don't have an agenda. The pursuit of knowledge shouldn't have an agenda.
W
WhosDaDungeonMaster
Guest
If you don't have an agenda, why would you ask someone else not to pursue theirs? You ask Capp not to derail this thread even though you have no purpose for this thread other than to share information. You've shared it, so isn't your purpose fulfilled?
Because his agenda is, at best, only indirectly relevant to the thread. He also has a... history, of derailing threads into pointless bickering.
TwoSix
Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The first post doesn't really have a topic to derail, though. The numbers are pretty well known at this point.
1) -5/+10 is better when you have more attacks.
2) -5/+10 is better as you gain accuracy.
3) -5/+10 is less useful as your base damage improves (to the point where it becomes neutral or worse if you have high amounts of sneak attack or are using cantrips like booming blade).
Personally, I think the most interesting discussion around the -5/+10 mechanic is whether it should be a base rule. Is martial damage for great weapon users and archers too high, and the -5/+10 mechanic should be dropped entirely? Or would making it base rule simply allow sword and board users and two weapon fighters to do the right amount of damage?
Similar Threads
