The Monk isn't MAD... he's ENRAGED!!!!

[Empirate]

Since the original discussion was Monk vs. Fighter, not Monk vs. Wizard, maybe we can find something to learn from this fruitless conversation.

Can a 20th level Fighter do anything to a 20th level Wizard that a 20th level Monk cannot (with free choice of equipment)? I think not. Both classes' best bet is taking Leadership and hire an 18th level Wizard, Cleric, Druid, or Artificer cohort. That cohort can then do the actual work (like getting access to extradimensional spaces, determining the kinds of defenses the Wizard has up and devising countermeasures). The killing is left to the Fighter or Monk "master", of course, but I'd assume they're both sufficiently adept at that.

So what's the actual difference between Fighter and Monk in this scenario? Not a whole lot. They're similarly useless vs. a 20th level Wizard.



BTW, to adress the earlier debate: sneaking up a rope isn't really the issue if you're dealing with any given 20th level Wizard. Finding a situation in which he's not aware that you might be coming IS. Depending on the level of the Wizard's paranoia, there's really nothing preventing him from having planar bound allies guarding him while sleeping, or spending sleepy-time on a different plane with altered time traits so his nap only takes a millisecond on the prime material, or regularly casting divinations to make sure he knows who his enemies are and what their plans might entail, etc.

Sure, this comes close to the point Empath Negative made earlier, that any given Wizard cannot possibly do all of these. But 1) any given Wizard only needs to do one of these, and it's not all that resource-intensive, especially when compared to the immense utility of not being murdered in your sleep, and 2) not any given Monk will come up with a plan as brilliant as stealth-climbing a rope at the same time the Wizard is climbing it, then hiding in his featureless cell of an extradimensional room until he's finished his ablutions, said his prayers and gone to sleep, then CdG'ing him in same.

BTW, how did the Monk ever get this close to the Wizard while he was going about his sleepy-time preparations? I wonder...

 

[Jimlock]

Another setback the monk has is the following:

SRD -> Rope Trick -> The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time.

BTW, to adress the earlier debate: sneaking up a rope isn't really the issue if you're dealing with any given 20th level Wizard. Finding a situation in which he's not aware that you might be coming IS. Depending on the level of the Wizard's paranoia, there's really nothing preventing him from having planar bound allies guarding him while sleeping, or spending sleepy-time on a different plane with altered time traits so his nap only takes a millisecond on the prime material, or regularly casting divinations to make sure he knows who his enemies are and what their plans might entail, etc.

Sure, this comes close to the point Empath Negative made earlier, that any given Wizard cannot possibly do all of these. But 1) any given Wizard only needs to do one of these, and it's not all that resource-intensive, especially when compared to the immense utility of not being murdered in your sleep, and 2) not any given Monk will come up with a plan as brilliant as stealth-climbing a rope at the same time the Wizard is climbing it, then hiding in his featureless cell of an extradimensional room until he's finished his ablutions, said his prayers and gone to sleep, then CdG'ing him in same.

BTW, how did the Monk ever get this close to the Wizard while he was going about his sleepy-time preparations? I wonder...

I think these sort of debates make some (if any...) sense only in case if PVP fights.

You put two characters in an arena and you let them work it out.

If this is the case, yes the prepared Wizard is unbeatable.



As for sneaking up on a Wizard (or any other character)... attacking him in his sleep... and blah blah blah... are equally pointless as discussions.

NOT because these situations are impossible to come up but because it is naive to try and imagine such setups out of the blue...

If you do it that way you can clearly give one character the advantage (surprise) and be done with.



A wizard, or any other powerful character, humanoid or not, in the context of D&D is not automaton that spends all his life in distant planes, away from people and civilization so as to be prepared 24/7 for any sort of attack from 20th level fighters, 20th level monks... or whatever have you...
If this is the case... then I'm sorry that you are playing such a horrible and unrealistic game.

He is an entity with needs. He needs to get laid, he needs to eat well, he needs good company and friends... he needs libraries to study his favored art... he needs to walk in cities, villages... the countryside... he needs to take vacation... he needs to travel... in short he needs to LIVE.
Not that wizards can't get paranoid with safety, BUT, the still need to live... otherwise all their power is for nothing.

Now such a creature cannot ALWAYS sleep in Rope Tricks...cause it's nice to have morning sun wake you up.
He can't ALWAYS be protected by extra planar powerful beings...cause sometimes he needs to take a nice, quite stroll without attracting attention.

Even as a Lich the Wizard has needs, goals and schedules, all of which are not bulletproof.

I'm not saying it's easy, I'm simply saying it's possible.

So who wins?

Well it all depends on the story, the setup... the ideas and the choices one makes.

So I can gladly enjoy a PVP thread for the fun of it... but when it goes down to "the one is sneaking up this way", "the other sleeps the other way".... it's kinda pointless.

 

[Dandu]

Now such a creature cannot ALWAYS sleep in Rope Tricks...cause it's nice to have morning sun wake you up.

Speak for yourself. I have trouble sleeping at night due to relatively small amounts of light and require very dark rooms in order to fall asleep. Bright lights tend to force me to wake up early and give me a headache, so I prefer rooms with very heavy curtains.

 

[Jimlock]

...one morning, you 'll hesitantly move one curtain to the side, so as to get a glimpse of the rapidly aging outside world...
This, will be your undoing.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Speak for yourself. I have trouble sleeping at night due to relatively small amounts of light and require very dark rooms in order to fall asleep. Bright lights tend to force me to wake up early and give me a headache, so I prefer rooms with very heavy curtains.

Yep. Personally, I only like to sleep in a cluttered closet, hanging upside-down like a bat.

Which proves Jimlock is wrong when he says wizards would want to live something resembling a normal human life.

 

[kitcik]

High level wizard: Int 30++
High level monk: Str/Con/Dex/Wis MAD --> Int & Cha = dump stats

Something tells me the wizard will be ready for a (poorly executed) melee "sneak" attack.

That "something" is called hubris.

I guess your parties play wizards lacking a certain something, a la the Scarecrow. Kind of a Wilfred Fizzlebang kinda thing. Ah well, whatever floats your boat. Most 30+ Int characters in campaigns I have been a part of have been pretty well prepared - even for intra-party treason.

 

[Empath Negative]

The point being there is always the presumption that is most favorable to the Wizard.

For example, that he's 20th level.


Just you go ahead and TRY to sneak up on a lvl 40 God Wizard King Priest Lord. Try it, I dare you. Munkz sukz.

What gear does the wizard get? Any he wants. Which spells? Any he wants. Which items, components and circumstances? Any he wants. Anytime he wants.

I mean we're literally talking about a grown man who sleeps in a planar cave every single night for the rest of his natural life... and that didn't strike anyone as a little "contrived".

No, the big issue was that someone would sneak up a rope. That's the part found to be implausible.

 

[Dandu]

Guys, guys, you're going about this all wrong. We're being eliteist, telling people what is or is not true, and how things do or do not work. Who are we to say that you can't follow someone up a rope without them noticing you, then waiting next to them for them to fall asleep and still remain unnoticed? If Empath Negative wants to say otherwise, that's his right.

You see, he doesn't trust rulebooks; they're all fact and no heart. And that's exactly what's tearing our board apart today. Face it folks, we are a divided community. Not between Third and Fouth edition, or between roleplayers and rollplayers - or WotC and Pathfinder, for that matter - but between those who think with their heads and those who know with their heart.

Consider Giacomo. If you think about his guide to monks, wherein he asserts that they are not MAD and can use UMD to have power on par with full casters, of course it's absurd. But doesn't it feel nice when you read about how monks are actually misunderstood, and that there is nothing wrong with the 3.5e core at all? A nice, warm, comfortable sensation right in your gut?

That there's where the truth really comes from, from ladies and gentlemen, the gut. Now I know some of you may not trust your gut yet, but with Empath Negative's help you will. The truthiness is, anyone can read the rules to you, but only Empath Negative can to feel the rules at you.

 

[Empath Negative]

Guys, guys, you're going about this all wrong. We're being eliteist, telling people what is or is not true, and how things do or do not work. Who are we to say that you can't follow someone up a rope without them noticing you, then waiting next to them for them to fall asleep and still remain unnoticed? If Empath Negative wants to say otherwise, that's his right.

You see, he doesn't trust rulebooks; they're all fact and no heart. And that's exactly what's tearing our board apart today. Face it folks, we are a divided community. Not between Third and Fouth edition, or between roleplayers and rollplayers - or WotC and Pathfinder, for that matter - but between those who think with their heads and those who know with their heart.

Consider Giacomo. If you think about his guide to monks, wherein he asserts that they are not MAD and can use UMD to have power on par with full casters, of course it's absurd. But doesn't it feel nice when you read about how monks are actually misunderstood, and that there is nothing wrong with the 3.5e core at all? A nice, warm, comfortable sensation right in your gut?

That there's where the truth really comes from, from ladies and gentlemen, the gut. Now I know some of you may not trust your gut yet, but with Empath Negative's help you will. The truthiness is, anyone can read the rules to you, but only Empath Negative can to feel the rules at you.

Blah blah blah... keep the personal attacks to yourself. I know you'll get away with it because you're favored around here, so there's no sense reporting it, but seriously. Save it.

You don't like that I poked a hole in your little Wizards are Almighty God Scenario and you're responding with sarcasm, meanness and a bald faced attempt to humiliate me.

Your "Man Eternally in a Planar Hole" via rope trick is contrived, and a guy sneaking up behind someone who has no natural ability to spot him is not. You don't like that so you're responding like the above.

I'd ask the mods to step in but it's *my tone* that they find so terribly disturbing but you get to say stuff like that to me.

*facepalm*

 

[Dandu]

Your "Man Eternally in a Planar Hole" via rope trick is contrived

Do you lock your doors and close your blinds at night?

and a guy sneaking up behind someone who has no natural ability to spot him is not.

Please explain to me how a Monk can actually follow someone up a rope stealthily without them noticing him so that he will be able to assassinate said person in his sleep, and I shall apologize forthwith.

Here, I'll show you how I want it done.

Step 1: Hire someone to cast Discern Location in order to discern the wizard's location.
Step 2: Buy a potion of Fly and a potion of See Invisibility.
Step 3: Drink the potions.
Step 4: Look for the Rope Trick opening.
Step 5: Enter the Rope Trick.
Step 6: Kill the wizard.
Step 7: ???
Step 8: Profit.

My issue with you is not that you have shown the Rope Trick to be an invulnerable fortress, but that your arguments are total bollocks.

Remember this?

You're not getting it.


Follow him *while* he is climbing the rope.

Yeah, that's a great way to accomplish the original objective you originally laid out. Which, if you have forgotten, I will include below.

The 8th level Wizard in question is asleep. Like they are... almost every night. He went to sleep at 10:00pm, it's currently midnight and the Monk is standing next to him, thanks to being especially sneaky (stealthiness is a part of their class, after all).

I'm curious how the Wizard gets out of this one...

(Incidentally, the thought does occur that the Wizard's familiar might notice an intruder. Snakes have Scent, rats have Scent, bats have Blindsense, and etc. But that's assuming conditions favorable towards the wizard, I suppose.)