The Monk isn't MAD... he's ENRAGED!!!!

[Empath Negative]

Ah yes, who can forget poor Bigsy Bimblebottom, killed by a brainwashed Communist sleeper agent who dropped a constipated rhinoceros on him as his motorcade passed under an overpass.

John F. Kennedy shot in the head mad-libs?

This has officially moved to "disconcerting".


When people challenge my perspective I might get angry, I might get frustrated...

I don't crack jokes about murdering world leaders...


More to the point... and trying to veer away from the creeptastic... even with all the resources of the world at their disposal, yes world leaders are assassinated. Why that's "funny" on these forums is beyond me, but it's Dandu and I suspect the mods pretty much give him open fiat to do as he pleased.

Regardless, if one stealthy person can fire one weapon while undetected... there's no reason in a fantasy world a similarly stealthy person could not do the same.

 

[xigbar]

I only popped in to this thread to see how long it would go before someone accidentally started a casters versus non-casters argument, and stopped at the top of page 3.

 

[Empirate]

Blah blah blah... keep the personal attacks to yourself. I know you'll get away with it because you're favored around here, so there's no sense reporting it, but seriously. Save it.

...

I'd ask the mods to step in but it's *my tone* that they find so terribly disturbing but you get to say stuff like that to me.

*facepalm*

...
Why that's "funny" on these forums is beyond me, but it's Dandu and I suspect the mods pretty much give him open fiat to do as he pleased.

Protip: avoid jumping down mods' throats first thing, and it might just be that people care more about your hurt feelings. But trying to bait out mod action on YOUR behalf by accusing them of favoritism and issuing thinly-veiled insults isn't going to get you very far in your perpetual Dandu Wars.

 

[Neonchameleon]

How significantly better is a sword and board Fighter to a Monk if that monk largely ignores dexterity and wisdom?

A Fighter with a +5 Heavy Shield, +5 Fullplate, and 12 dex will have an AC of 32.

A lvl 20 Monk with +8 Armor bracers, a +6 dex item, and a +6 wisdom item, with 12 base dex would have an ac of 29.

Correction: A Fighter in +5 Mithral Fullplate and with a +5 Heavy Shield and 12 dex and a +4 item of dex will have an AC of 34 - or five points higher than the monk.

Further the fighter has spent 25,000 GP on his shield, 35,000 on his armour, and 16,000 on his dex booster (rounding slightly) = just over 76,000GP. The Monk has spent 64,000 GP on his bracers of armour and a further 72,000 GP on stat boosting items = 136,000 GP The fighter has more than 50,000 GP spare. But his AC is probably only in practice 3 points higher as he's wielding a two handed weapon and a dancing shield.

The monk has two defensive advantages - reflex defence + evasion, and spell resistance. These are significant (will is trumped by Mind Blank).

The monk's mobility advantage is long gone by level 20 - everyone should be flying.

But damage output. The monk has 2d10 fists - sounds significant, doesn't it? Not really. The fighter is gaining a +50% to his strength modifier on weapons that should be doing no less than 2d4 damage with reach. And therefore takes buffs better. But more to the point the fighter can carry a magic weapon - the monk has serious problems upgrading his fists (or can carry a magic 1d6 weapon). (There's always the Monk's Belt for a couple more points of damage).

And then we look at the target to hit numbers. At level 20 the first three level 20 monsters I found were a Black Wyrm (AC 39), a Balor (AC 35) and the Tarrasque (AC 35).

So let's say 35 is needed to hit a big creature. The L20 monk has a BAB of +15. Strength of around 26 if he's dumped everything into strength - so we're at +23. 12s to hit. He better have a good amulet of mighty fists - without one, the fighter's hitting almost twice as often. +5 (150,000GP) will bring him down to needing a respectable 7 to hit the Balor or the Tarrasque - or the same number the fighter needs with no enchantment. Meaning the fighter can raise his damage (and probably have greater magic weapon cast on hsi sword). Wounding's a +2 enchantment that effectively adds half the monsters hit dice to the damage. And he can get a +8 sword for the cost of that +5 amulet. So that's +5 wounding, lightning. Or other, better combinations.

Not that either character has a chance against the level 20 enemies. The Tarrasque's rolling at +50 to hit their AC. The dragon +46/+41. Even the Balor, primarily a caster, is rolling +31/26/21/16 and 30/25. The monk's going to be paying for his low AC. The basic problem is that both characters are irrelevant anyway. The monk just a little more so because he paid much more for his items, draining potential party coffers that much more.

Well, the presumption people make in mage v. whatever... is the presumption of a fair fight.

Indeed. A wizard who gets involved in a fair fight rather than teleporting, scrying, and frying is an idiot. The wizard is the one with the tools to set the terms of the fight - or to leave one he doesn't like. The wizard has the tools to be ready for the enemy (scry), to find the enemy (scry), to be on the enemy when the enemy doesn't know they are coming (teleport), to always go first (celerity), and to escape if things turn pear shaped (teleport).

If the fight is close to fair for a high level wizard, the wizard should just put on a dunce's cap.

The 8th level Wizard in question is asleep. Like they are... almost every night. He went to sleep at 10:00pm, it's currently midnight and the Monk is standing next to him, thanks to being especially sneaky (stealthiness is a part of their class, after all).

I'm curious how the Wizard gets out of this one...

By not being there. The monk made it into the rope trick (8 hours, no rope to climb) and past the alarm spell. The monk is not just especially sneaky, he's just walked into an extra-dimensional hole and mysteriously ignored the wizard's magical defences.

That's a first and a second level RAW spell (easy for an 8th level wizard) and the monk has only made it past either by DM fiat. The wizard only got into that position because someone was cheating or the wizard was careless.

You're not getting it.


Follow him *while* he is climbing the rope.

Explicitely against the rules. And anyway the monk is going to climb the rope to follow the wizard, then wait til he falls asleep. Riiight. That's yet another act of DM fiat to give the monk a chance.

 

[Zelc]

Empath Negative, I hate to say this, but I'm having a hard time telling whether you're being serious or if you're trolling. Some of the arguments you've made have been ridiculous, like having the Monk climb up a Rope Trick rope right after the Wizard does before he can pull the rope up, while not being noticed.

You claim we're being unrealistic, that we're assuming the Wizard is X level or expending Y amount of resources. I think we've tried to make it clear that the Wizard can create safe sleeping areas with minimal resources:

Alarm is a 1st level spell, and lasts 8 hours at caster level 4. It makes sneaking into a sleeping Wizard's room without being noticed far more difficult. Most 4th level adventuring Wizards can spare a spell slot to cast this and give their party more safety at night.

Arcane Lock is a 2nd level spell, albeit one costing 25 gp. It makes busting into the Wizard's room a lot more difficult.

Rope Trick is a 2nd level spell, and lasts 8 hours at caster level 8. Anyone trying to kill the sleeping Wizard in a Rope Trick must be able to find an invisible portal and find a way through it. Given that the rope will probably be pulled into the Rope Trick the turn after the Wizard goes into the Rope Trick, it's almost impossible to just sneak in by climbing up the rope.

Secure Shelter is a 4th level spell. It's very difficult to get into stealthily.

Obviously, a Wizard probably won't have all of these options. But even one of these creates significant difficulties to anyone trying to assassinate him in his sleep, and two of these together can make things almost impossible. Is it unreasonable to assume that a 4th level caster can spare a 1st level spell slot for Alarm? Is it unreasonable that an 8th level caster will use one of his 4-5 2nd level spell slots for Rope Trick?

You've also proposed no detailed way that a Monk can bypass these reasonable defenses, other than try to handwave things by saying the Monk is sneaky, or proposing some wildly unrealistic plan such as having the Monk somehow climb the rope right behind the Wizard, while staying unnoticed.

 

[Empath Negative]

Protip: avoid jumping down mods' throats first thing, and it might just be that people care more about your hurt feelings. But trying to bait out mod action on YOUR behalf by accusing them of favoritism and issuing thinly-veiled insults isn't going to get you very far in your perpetual Dandu Wars.

No. You'd have to understand the discussions I've had with the mods.

I'm accusing them of favoritism because the above is a wonderful example of it. I don't expect them to take action in my favor. In fact the best outcome for me in my mind is they do nothing because every single interaction I've had is negative.

Whenever Dandu feels suitably threatened he engages on a little campaign of humiliation and unkind comments. He cruelly mocks people. Everyone that reads this forum knows it. He's a bully. And the mods let him get away with it. If they were serious about enforcing civility he would've either been a much kinder dandu... or banned.. long before I showed up.

Don't believe he's treated favorably? Notice you're on my case here, and not his? Did you cone out against it when he was mocking me earlier?

Nah. Your great moral outrage was that I called him out for his personal attack and said straight out the mods would do nothing about it. Thus far all evidence suggests I was correct.

But I was the bad actor here for pointing out the big man on campus is a bully and the teaching staff lets him get away with it.

 

[Empirate]

No. You'd have to understand the discussions I've had with the mods.

I'm accusing them of favoritism because the above is a wonderful example of it. I don't expect them to take action in my favor. In fact the best outcome for me in my mind is they do nothing because every single interaction I've had is negative.

Whenever Dandu feels suitably threatened he engages on a little campaign of humiliation and unkind comments. He cruelly mocks people. Everyone that reads this forum knows it. He's a bully. And the mods let him get away with it. If they were serious about enforcing civility he would've either been a much kinder dandu... or banned.. long before I showed up.

Don't believe he's treated favorably? Notice you're on my case here, and not his? Did you cone out against it when he was mocking me earlier?

Nah. Your great moral outrage was that I called him out for his personal attack and said straight out the mods would do nothing about it. Thus far all evidence suggests I was correct.

But I was the bad actor here for pointing out the big man on campus is a bully and the teaching staff lets him get away with it.

My 'moral outrage' is in fact limited to a slightly raised eyebrow. I simply don't seem to get the same vibes off Dandu (and he has mocked me at one or two points that I remember) as you do. I don't feel he's humiliating in his style of commenting. He's sometimes very sarcastic, but he's not bullying anybody in the way I interpret the word. Embarking on a shoot-down-Dandu campaign is quite possible without hurt feelings, if you simply reply in kind. If you don't take offense at his statements, but shoot right back in a tongue-in-cheek style, then nobody gets humiliated.

Text doesn't carry intent all too well. I'm not entirely sure what Dandu's intentions are when he posts in threads like this. What I am certain about, though, is that it is both possible and in your best interest not to take it to heart - it might not be an attempt to humiliate you (it might also be one, of course, but this is the internet, and there are jerks. Big news), even if you tend to read it as such.

That said, one always has a better stake in any discussion if the issue at hand can be argued favorably. I, personally, don't think you can actually be serious when you talk about sneaking up ropes that are at that moment being climbed by other people. In fact, this comes - to me - across as so ludicrous that I find it a bit hard to reply in earnest. I guess when you're that far apart in a discussion it gets much more likely for somebody to choose a way of putting things which comes across as hurtful to the 'opponents' in the debate. Best thing to do at that point is to leave the discussion alone already, which I will proceed to do now.

Respect for your work, honestly and generally, if not for your standpoint in this particular discussion,
Empirate

 

[Ranger19k]

No. You'd have to understand the discussions I've had with the mods.

Do you really want to embark on this crusade again? Weren't you forced to switch names last time?

Please just let it go.