D&D 5E The Most Annoying Wizard Ever- A Bladesinger Build

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I've been trying to make something like that work, but the Arcane Trickster level keep sinking my casting so far that they can't keep up with a full caster. I can't even get them to be on-par, what am I missing that makes them OP?

The only things I can think of is rolling for stats and having great luck, or a house rule letting Wizard and AK level stack for spells known.
 

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Ovarwa

Explorer
Hi,

The idea isn't to keep up with a full-caster, but to blend Bladesinger with Rogue to be a better rogue.

Bladesinger 2 and 6 features are even better for a rogue with good Int than for a Wizard. Second attack means a second chance to land a sneak attack, leaving your bonus action free. Bladesong 2/short rest is at least as good for you as for a real wizard An extra martial weapon proficiency doesn't hurt. Something like Rogue13/Bladesinger7 in whatever order feels right... there's something to be said for that. Assassin might be better than AT.

Anyway,

Ken
 

Jordan Kahl

First Post
I've been looking into a Bladesinging Swashbuckler. Starting level 1 rogue, taking 2 levels of wizard for bladesong and the rest rogue gets leaves you with a stealthy martial character that is really hard to hit even standing in the middle of a group. Bladesong and fancy footwork let you bounce around the battlefield while rakish audacity lets you solo sneak attack. The two levels of wizard only reduce your sneak attack die by 1d6 while giving you shield, fog cloud, feather fall, and disguise self for when/if you get caught out in the open. By level 9 you gain evasion for saving against the AOEs you can't shield your way out of. This does greatly limit you to the number of shields, but you should already be really hard to hit.

I'm considering this build, so please help me poke holes in it, so I don't get blindsided! lol
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I've been looking into a Bladesinging Swashbuckler. Starting level 1 rogue, taking 2 levels of wizard for bladesong and the rest rogue gets leaves you with a stealthy martial character that is really hard to hit even standing in the middle of a group. Bladesong and fancy footwork let you bounce around the battlefield while rakish audacity lets you solo sneak attack. The two levels of wizard only reduce your sneak attack die by 1d6 while giving you shield, fog cloud, feather fall, and disguise self for when/if you get caught out in the open. By level 9 you gain evasion for saving against the AOEs you can't shield your way out of. This does greatly limit you to the number of shields, but you should already be really hard to hit.

I'm considering this build, so please help me poke holes in it, so I don't get blindsided! lol

I like the concept, my biggest concern is that it's quite MAD. Bladesong AC is +INT, but that's not really useful elsewhere in the build. You'll need at least a 13 INT to multiclass, say 14 for +2 at low levels. If you're point buy that's really eating into other abilities you'd want to raise like DEX and CON. You don't mention any concentration (bladesong bonus) or spells with attack/save, so at that point raising DEX gets you everything raising INT does and lots more. If you start with a +3 DEX mod, 4th and 8th bring it up to +5, and it's not until 12th you'd have a free ASI to raise INT - assuming you don't want to get a feat or raise CON - or CHR, you do get some from that as a Swashbuckler and there's a lot of good skills based on it.

In other words, the features go well together but it seems to spread yourself thin in terms of ability scores. On the other hand, if you're rolling and you have several good scores it could really work together.

As a side note, Rogue (Arcane Trickster) does get ONE spell known (more at higher levels) from other schools besides Enchantment and Illusion. So if you go that rouge you don't have an INT requirement and you can pick up shield, featherfall or fog cloud in addition to disguise self (since it's illusion already). You lose the quite nifty bladesong, but it doesn't bring you as much as it would an INT-focused character.
 

Kithas

First Post
Blue summed it up really well. This has always been how I saw the bladesinger class. Cute, but far too MAD to really be worthwhile. You need a high Int, or your spells are mediocre and you don't get that massive boost to your ac. You need a high Con or that lucky guy who manages to hit you will just take you down, or you fall to aoe spells that still do half damage. And you need a good Dex for the other half of your ac and to make your melee attacks worthwhile. Usually by level 20 you can end up with 3 20's but your other stats/saves will suffer for this. I doubt you will survive a wis save lategame and then you're mind controlled a +6(or +5 if you have a -1 wis) to the save just isn't enough.

It's cute and good when it works but if you want full-caster tanks or just crazy hard to kill tanks their are much better options. Tempest Cleric/Storm Sorc, War Cleric/Ranger, Druid/Ranger, Dex Pally/warlock, are all much less dependant on 3 stats. the cleric/sorc only really needs 2 stats to be crazy, Con and Cha because who needs weapons when you have shocking grasp/thunderclap.
 

Ovarwa

Explorer
Hi,

I don't think Blue was commenting about BS as a class, only the combination with Swashbuckler, which wants Dex, Int, Cha and a little bit of Con.

BS is perfectly fine as a class. BS20 is very, very good. BS in combination with other classes that only demand Dex can also be very good. A Bladesinger is not a dedicated tank. Judging it on that basis is every bit as reasonable to suggest that barbarians suck because they are poor spellcasters.

There are guides that discuss Bladesinger, so I'll leave it at that, except to agree that BS/Swash is a combo perhaps best reconsidered.

Anyway,

Ken
 

Kithas

First Post
The main point of this thread is using bladesinger for making a stupidly hard to kill character. ie a tank. Every class can be every role(Tank, Support, Damage dealer). Some just excel at different parts of that role. I am sure that a Bladesinger would make a perfectly serviceable tank and would be a boon to the party. I don't think they'd be 'the most annoying thing ever'.
 

Jordan Kahl

First Post
I appreciate the feedback on the bladesinger/swashbuckler suggestions. Swashbucklers gain some benefit from CHA, but I would consider keeping it low as the big benefit is for initiative and Panache. It would be sacrificing the Panache disadvantage from single target in combat for the bladesong and shield AC, but point taken. Trying to optimize AC while still being a melee threat has largely been the goal with some RP flavor and combat style preferences being minor restrictions.


As an alternative, I was looking up how to get the highest AC and found that a Ranger 7/Wizard 1/Cleric 1 is the lowest level to be able to achieve a resting AC of 27 (given +3 shield and +3 half-plate), a magical item enhanced AC of 31, a combat buffed AC of 35, and a highly-situational maximum of 49. This is dependent on a the Medium Armor Master feat and Dex of 16, and the defense fighting style.

Source: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67197/what-is-the-highest-possible-ac

Precluding the magical items as they are based on how generous the DM is, that gives you an resting AC of 21 and a situational AC of 30 without 3/4 cover, that is attainable at level 9 with Ranger 7/Wizard 1/Cleric 1.

I would like to propose that you can get a "more annoying" character with a bladesinger. By changing the feat from Medium Armor Master to Dual Wielder and using the standard array and no enhanced or magical items, you could achieve a situational AC of 31 by level 11, maxing out at 34 by level 20 without 3/4 cover. (probably sooner if you kept cleric as in the source post)

I suggest that Ranger 7/Wizard 2/Paladin 2 is a more practical and likely much "more annoying" build. This build precludes a shield (+2 AC) and the Medium Armor Master feat (+1 AC) and replaces it with the Dual Wielder feat (+1 AC) and Bladesong (+INT mod AC). The change from half-plate to studded leather comes at the cost of 3 AC, but no longer caps the DEX bonus to +2 which recovers 1 AC at level 1 and the remainder by level 11. (This depends on the DM allowing a variant human bladesinger. Without which, all following ACs are reduced by 1, which while not optimal, are still really solid)

A variant human bladesinging hunter paladin, wearing studded leather and dual wielding would have a favored enemy, colossus slayer, two weapon fighting, an extra attack and divine smite to be a serious threat while having studded leather (12 AC) + DEX mod (4) + Dual Wielder (1) + Defense fighting style (1) for a resting AC of 18. Add to that bladesong (only a +2 to AC until level 16), shield of faith and a shield spell (two bonus actions and a reaction) and you have an additional 9 AC, totaling 26 at level 9.

You would gain multiattack defense at level 11 for a situational boost of +4 AC against a creature after you've already been hit by them. You would max out DEX at level 12, giving you a +1 bump to resting AC and get to INT 16/18 at level 16/20 to bump the bladesong bonus to +3/+4.

As far as spells, you would be very limited on selection, but you would have 2 levels as a full caster and the rest as a half caster, which should give you plenty of fuel for shield, divine smite, and shield of faith.

This build is all kinds of MAD, requiring DEX and INT as high as possible, STR and CHA at 13 or more for multiclassing, and pushing WIS to -1 and keeping CON at 0 (hopefully you'd never get hit, but at least you get Evasion at... level 19). This could be reduced by choosing war cleric (WIS) over paladin (STR and CHA), but at the cost of divine smite. Depending on ranger spell selection, this may be a better way to go, but I would anticipate Divine Smite providing a lot more damage than ranger spells.

I feel like I'm missing something, so please set me straight if I did.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
We needs more Paladin for those STDs.

In fact, how much Wizard do we even need? What about a Paladin/Warlock/Wizard, focused on Charisma and Intelligence (dexterity secondary)?
 

Ovarwa

Explorer
I appreciate the feedback on the bladesinger/swashbuckler suggestions. Swashbucklers gain some benefit from CHA, but I would consider keeping it low as the big benefit is for initiative and Panache. It would be sacrificing the Panache disadvantage from single target in combat for the bladesong and shield AC, but point taken. Trying to optimize AC while still being a melee threat has largely been the goal with some RP flavor and combat style preferences being minor restrictions. As an alternative, I was looking up how to get the highest AC and found that a Ranger 7/Wizard 1/Cleric 1 is the lowest level to be able to achieve a resting AC of 27 (given +3 shield and +3 half-plate), a magical item enhanced AC of 31, a combat buffed AC of 35, and a highly-situational maximum of 49. This is dependent on a the Medium Armor Master feat and Dex of 16, and the defense fighting style. Source: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67197/what-is-the-highest-possible-ac Precluding the magical items as they are based on how generous the DM is, that gives you an resting AC of 21 and a situational AC of 30 without 3/4 cover, that is attainable at level 9 with Ranger 7/Wizard 1/Cleric 1. I would like to propose that you can get a "more annoying" character with a bladesinger. By changing the feat from Medium Armor Master to Dual Wielder and using the standard array and no enhanced or magical items, you could achieve a situational AC of 31 by level 11, maxing out at 34 by level 20 without 3/4 cover. (probably sooner if you kept cleric as in the source post) I suggest that Ranger 7/Wizard 2/Paladin 2 is a more practical and likely much "more annoying" build. This build precludes a shield (+2 AC) and the Medium Armor Master feat (+1 AC) and replaces it with the Dual Wielder feat (+1 AC) and Bladesong (+INT mod AC). The change from half-plate to studded leather comes at the cost of 3 AC, but no longer caps the DEX bonus to +2 which recovers 1 AC at level 1 and the remainder by level 11. (This depends on the DM allowing a variant human bladesinger. Without which, all following ACs are reduced by 1, which while not optimal, are still really solid) A variant human bladesinging hunter paladin, wearing studded leather and dual wielding would have a favored enemy, colossus slayer, two weapon fighting, an extra attack and divine smite to be a serious threat while having studded leather (12 AC) + DEX mod (4) + Dual Wielder (1) + Defense fighting style (1) for a resting AC of 18. Add to that bladesong (only a +2 to AC until level 16), shield of faith and a shield spell (two bonus actions and a reaction) and you have an additional 9 AC, totaling 26 at level 9. You would gain multiattack defense at level 11 for a situational boost of +4 AC against a creature after you've already been hit by them. You would max out DEX at level 12, giving you a +1 bump to resting AC and get to INT 16/18 at level 16/20 to bump the bladesong bonus to +3/+4. As far as spells, you would be very limited on selection, but you would have 2 levels as a full caster and the rest as a half caster, which should give you plenty of fuel for shield, divine smite, and shield of faith. This build is all kinds of MAD, requiring DEX and INT as high as possible, STR and CHA at 13 or more for multiclassing, and pushing WIS to -1 and keeping CON at 0 (hopefully you'd never get hit, but at least you get Evasion at... level 19). This could be reduced by choosing war cleric (WIS) over paladin (STR and CHA), but at the cost of divine smite. Depending on ranger spell selection, this may be a better way to go, but I would anticipate Divine Smite providing a lot more damage than ranger spells. I feel like I'm missing something, so please set me straight if I did.
The only person likely to be annoyed by attempting this build is the player who tries it! * You won't get a +3 shield * You won't get +3 armor * You won't be very good at anything other than not getting hit for a few rounds per day On the positive side: * You are even worse than a normal ranger * You are quite vulnerable to anything that doesn't target AC But at least you're so MAD that you make a case for Normal Human. (And if normal Human is tempting, you gotta be on the wrong track!) Even more positively, NPCs who realize your capabilities will attack you last, for ultimate survivability. So maybe it's a good build after all. Make him a kobold, and help your allies by being a hard-to-hit cowerer? Anyway, Ken
 

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