The New Core Rulebook

[Scribble]

I for the most part agree with you.

I think the DDI is definitely a game changer, and in a way that I think even surprised WoTC!

One of the most common things I think I read on here is someone saying they don't bother to buy the books because it will just be in the CB soon enough.

I think it's partially the reason they've started making the boxed sets, and lower cost books filled with Flavor. I think it's a shift in focus. They've realized that the DDI is as you say kind of the core, and trying to sell it, and a 50 dollar book with most of the same info ends up leading to people ignoring the books or pirating them.

So- start selling books that are less expensive, and filled with stuff we won't get from the DDI alone (flavor matterial) and in other cases bundled with stuff that is kind of pointless to pirate (Cards, tokens, maps ,etc...)

I thi k someone thought this one out pretty well.

 

[Mercurius]

Good points, Scribble. I am an example of someone who doesn't buy certain books because I'm just as happy to get the updates. What don't I buy? Anything that is specific to character building, such as the Power books. I have 23 4E hardcovers on my shelf, which means I haven't bought 13 of the 4E hardcovers. Here is how they split up:

What I own (23): Player's Handbook 1-3; Dungeon Master's Guide 1-2; Monster Manuals 1-3; Draconomicon 1-2; Manual of the Planes; The Plane Above; The Plane Below; Underdark; Open Grave; Dungeon Delve; Demonomicon; Adventurer's Vault; Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide; Eberron Campaign Guide; Dark Sun Campaign Guide; Dark Sun Creature Catalog; Tomb of Horrors.

What I don't own (13): Martial Power 1-2; Arcane Power; Divine Power; Primal Power; Psionic Power; Dragon Magazine Annual; Dungeon Magazine Annual; Revenge of the Giants; Forgotten Realms Player's Guide; Eberron Player's Guide; Adventurer's Vault 2; Player's Strategy Guide.

As you can see, most of what I don't own is stuff that can be had via DDI - actually, everything except the Giants book and the Player's Strategy Guide is available as DDI content, and even largely outside of the Compendium.

At one point I did own Martial Power but I never used it, nor did my players, so I sent it packing on a trade on RPG.Net. It is mainly used for character design and advancement, most of which they do through DDI. My players will read whatever hard-copy book has their actual class in it, but in terms of leveling up and creating a new character, there is really no need for the Power books.

The campaign settings and theme books haven't been put online and don't translate that well to computer format. Maybe I'm old school, but I just don't see browsing a PDF or an ebook of, say, The Dark Sun Campaign Guide to be anywhere near as useful or satisfying as having a hard-copy in hand. The same goes for Underdark and the other theme books.

Now would I have bought the Power books if there was no DDI? Maybe, probably even--or at least some of them. But I might have been (or even still be) more inclined if they were in softcover, even digest, format - and thus cheaper. But for anything requiring frequent browsing--whether a core rulebook with classes, a campaign guide, or theme book--I much prefer a full-sized hardcover or box set. We'll see how well the monster format translates to Monster Vault.

I write all of this not because I think WotC should cater to my personal tastes, but because as someone who has purchased two-thirds of the 4E hardcovers--at a total MSRP of over $700--my tastes mean something, and I think are a good example of why many people aren't buying certain books.

 

[Pickles JG]

I hear your point but that isn't what I was talking about in terms of what I mean by "core rulebook." What I mean is the core rules, canon, what is needed to play the game. It is the touchstone, so to speak, that everyone comes back to, refers to; "rules headquarters," if you will. What I am saying is that this has shifted away from the traditional PHB/DMG/MM to D&D Insider itself.

Your definition of core is not WOTC's which is more "not optional not setting specific" & in fact covers pretty much everything except themes & dragonmarks.

They erred by using the term core for this as it now leaves a hole for the essential bits you need to be able to play the game.
They use essential sort of along those lines but again it's not quite right as the essentials line is "the essence of the game" rather than "that without which it cannot be played".

The minimum needed to play is the RC plus some character rules plus some monsters.

 

[Pickles JG]

I have played about 3 times as many sessions as I have run (100+ odd to 30 odd) & my book purchasing is the converse of yours.

What I own (25): Player's Handbook 1-3; Dungeon Master's Guide 1; Monster Manuals 1-3; Draconomicon 1; Manual of the Planes; The Plane Above; Open Grave; Demonomicon; Adventurer's Vault 1-2; Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide; Eberron Campaign Guide; Dark Sun Campaign Guide; Martial Power 1-2; Arcane Power; Divine Power; Primal Power; Forgotten Realms Player's Guide; Eberron Player's Guide;

What I don't own (11): Dragon Magazine Annual; Dungeon Magazine Annual; Revenge of the Giants; Player's Strategy, Guide Dungeon Master's Guide 2, Dungeon Delve, Tomb of Horrors, Dark Sun Creature Catalog; The Plane Below; Underdark, Draconomicon 2, Psionic Power;

I have no need for the bold stuff & plan one day to get the other stuff. Psionic power is the first splat book I have missed out probably because I have stopped playing much (I got bored of LFR) but I still love DMing my intermittent home game. I know my LGS sells at least twice as many power books as it does "underdark" type fluff books.

Not sure what this means except a lot of people still like their books & players outnumber DMS at least 4:1. OTOH My home group probably owns fewer books put together than me - PHB & pertinent class books typically or just DDI for one.

 

[Jack99]

[/I]I write all of this not because I think WotC should cater to my personal tastes, but because as someone who has purchased two-thirds of the 4E hardcovers--at a total MSRP of over $700--my tastes mean something, and I think are a good example of why many people aren't buying certain books.

So my taste means more since I have spent (at the very least) 50% more than you?

Anyway, I have certainly seen a couple or 10 other posters state similar feelings (skipping books because they are available on the DDI) but do you have access to some stats that show its more prevalent? And if you do, can you honestly tell me that each of everyone of those people really would have bought the book if there had been no DDI? - For example, did each of those with said opinion buy every single book during the previous editions?

My guess is the answer is a big fat NO.

People rationalize _all_the_time_

 

[Scribble]

Now would I have bought the Power books if there was no DDI? Maybe, probably even--or at least some of them. But I might have been (or even still be) more inclined if they were in softcover, even digest, format - and thus cheaper. But for anything requiring frequent browsing--whether a core rulebook with classes, a campaign guide, or theme book--I much prefer a full-sized hardcover or box set. We'll see how well the monster format translates to Monster Vault.

I write all of this not because I think WotC should cater to my personal tastes, but because as someone who has purchased two-thirds of the 4E hardcovers--at a total MSRP of over $700--my tastes mean something, and I think are a good example of why many people aren't buying certain books.

I'm pretty much exactly on the same page with you as to what I have already bought.

I'm not on the same page with you about the hardbacks though. I thought I would be, but once I got a copy of the Essentials books, I realized I like them a lot. They're not as bulky, and work great for just sitting and reading.

Which brings me back to what my point was- that they've sort of accepted that the rules are being gotten/used primarily through the DDI, with the books serving a kind of backup duty... The seemingly rare moments when you're at the table and need to look up a rule. (Seriously, everything is so self contained I almost never look up anything at the table.)

So the books need another draw...

One is readability- Add more flavor so people want to just sit and read the books.

Another is portability- if they aren't being used that much at the table, why lug a heavy book filled with a ton of stuff you won't need around?

Combined with low cost... 20 bux is kind of my, no thought goes into it price point. I'm sure I'm not unique in that.


I also think they're being re-formatted to a size that just so happens to line up with most of the e-readers out there... My guess is we'll see them released in some sort of e-reader format really soon.

 

[TerraDave]

Their change in strategy is pretty much what you would expect if DDI was cutting into sales of (what used to be called) splat books. Could be a coincidence...

 

[Mercurius]

Your definition of core is not WOTC's which is more "not optional not setting specific" & in fact covers pretty much everything except themes & dragonmarks.

Yes, I know. It wasn't my intention to follow WotC's definition, which is basically meaningless, as you point out.

The minimum needed to play is the RC plus some character rules plus some monsters.

In other words, DDI .

Not sure what this means except a lot of people still like their books & players outnumber DMS at least 4:1. OTOH My home group probably owns fewer books put together than me - PHB & pertinent class books typically or just DDI for one.

Players might outnumber DMs 4:1, but I would guess that DM's purchasing at least four times as much stuff as player's, if not significantly more. This is just anecdotal, I own about 30 4E products; each of the other five members of my group own a PHB (because I asked them to purchase it), and I am not sure if anyone owns anything else other than dice and maybe a PHB2. So the DM in my group (me) owns over 80% of the total 4E books, and probably more like 95% of the total RPG books.

My group might be on the extreme side although I'd guess that the average primary DM in a group owns 50% or more of the total books.

So my taste means more since I have spent (at the very least) 50% more than you?

Huh? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, or why you are, or sound, irked.

Anyway, I have certainly seen a couple or 10 other posters state similar feelings (skipping books because they are available on the DDI) but do you have access to some stats that show its more prevalent? And if you do, can you honestly tell me that each of everyone of those people really would have bought the book if there had been no DDI? - For example, did each of those with said opinion buy every single book during the previous editions?

My guess is the answer is a big fat NO.

People rationalize _all_the_time_

Again, what's your problem? What am I saying that is offensive or is controversial at all?

I'm pretty much exactly on the same page with you as to what I have already bought.

I'm not on the same page with you about the hardbacks though. I thought I would be, but once I got a copy of the Essentials books, I realized I like them a lot. They're not as bulky, and work great for just sitting and reading.

I'm trying to be open to them! Actually, I don't even mind the digest books, as long as they aren't used for everything. I really like the RC, for instance, but I don't like the "Sundering of the Player's Handbook." I would much rather have seen the two Heroes book as one hardcover, say Player's Handbook 4.

Which brings me back to what my point was- that they've sort of accepted that the rules are being gotten/used primarily through the DDI, with the books serving a kind of backup duty... The seemingly rare moments when you're at the table and need to look up a rule. (Seriously, everything is so self contained I almost never look up anything at the table.)

Yes, that was pretty much the gist of my OP. DDI is becoming more and more the focus of the D&D rules, thus "The New Core Rulebook."

As for the books' draw, I think it is simply that most people still prefer a nice paper copy, both to enjoy on their bookshelf, browsing through on the couch, or using at the game table.

Unfortunately it is looking like the price point is already going up to $25, though (Class Compendium and Mordenkainen's are both $24.95, although their format remains to be announced).

I also think they're being re-formatted to a size that just so happens to line up with most of the e-readers out there... My guess is we'll see them released in some sort of e-reader format really soon.

True.

Their change in strategy is pretty much what you would expect if DDI was cutting into sales of (what used to be called) splat books. Could be a coincidence...

I doubt it.

 

[Scribble]

I'm trying to be open to them! Actually, I don't even mind the digest books, as long as they aren't used for everything. I really like the RC, for instance, but I don't like the "Sundering of the Player's Handbook." I would much rather have seen the two Heroes book as one hardcover, say Player's Handbook 4.

As I said- they've grown on me... But I can understand people who's preference is hardcover.

I can kind of see why they broke them up the way they did if the idea was for Essentials to be the intro series as well.

But as I said- I know some people like hardbacks. I've never really cared that much.

 

[occam]

(with the caveat emptor that if WotC does not find a way to continue to make 4E profitable, they might have to reboot in order to keep the D&D line viable; for whatever reason, Dungeons & Dragons as a brand name has not garnered the kind of invincibility that, say, Coca Cola has; all Coca Cola has to do to remain on top is a steady stream of advertisement. They don't really have to make new products; they do, afaik, but they don't have to. Coca Cola simply has to keep the name in the public awareness and the ship will keep sailing. The same is true of D&D to some extent, but what happens is that it booms and then dwindles to a relatively stable core of diehards; what doesn't happen is that it booms and then stays at that level of boom but shrinks back down to a much smaller size; again, afaik).

That's because the product that Coca-Cola sells loses its value once you use it, requiring one to buy more of it if one wishes to continue deriving value from Coca-Cola products. That's not generally true of WotC products. The business of selling consumables has much different economics.

In the same way that HP turns printer sales into repeat sales of high-margin ink, or that Microsoft is hoping to convert Office users into online subscribers (if only because sales of standalone software don't look good in the long term), I think you're right that Wizards would be happy if they could steady their future income by converting book sales into ongoing subscriptions. If that doesn't work, we'll be seeing a brand new set of 5e products down the road, once sales of 4e products don't meet their needs. If it does, then perhaps cries of "4E 4Ever!" will continue to ring out 10 or 20 years from now. (Seems unlikely.)