D&D 5E The non-mage mage, or an alternative to the EK, or an option for low-magic game

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I unfortunately probably won't get to test this alas (I run a local d&d game but I don't play in one). But I guess I could use this for an "archmage" the party is meeting...

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Pauln6

Hero
In our group we have a knight obsessed with magic and lore. He's a level 10 battle master Fighter and level 3 Lore Bard with ritual casting of Cleric spells with a focus on divination spells. Magical initiate is also useful to add flavour to such a build.
 
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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
In our group we have a knight obsessed with magic and lore. He's a level 10 battle master Fighter and level 3 Lore Bard with ritual casting of Cleric spells with a focus on divination spells. Magical initiate is also useful to add flavour to such a build.
I like it! But to be honest, I feel like by taking levels of a spell casting class it is a bit like cheating... I mean I could just take an EK and get waaay more spells....
 
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Pauln6

Hero
I like it! But to be honest, I feel like by taking levels of a spell casting class it is a bit like cheating... I mean I could just take an EK and get waaay more spells....

Bard spells are subtle and not showy, including some minor healing. Rituals are plot based and not damaging. Eldritch knight spells tend to be explodey and are much harder to bill as 'low magic'. If you stick to minor illusion and mage handor some other utility cantrips for your feat spells you preserve low magic while gaining a lot of low magic nifty tricks.
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
Honestly right now my main challenge is picking his fighting style. Staff in one hand, sword in the other? Sure that is what Gandalf did in the movies, but it didn't look right did it?

I mean look at that... it feels... awkward as heck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1rj0wBPSok

Gandalf in the novels never hit anyone with his staff. He was smart enough to realize he had a perfectly good sword for that.

I say if your Staff is not a Quarterstaff then it's not a weapon, and you can just take the Dueling fighting style.
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
Bard spells are subtle and not showy, including some minor healing. Rituals are plot based and not damaging. Eldritch knight spells tend to be explodey and are much harder to bill as 'low magic'. If you stick to minor illusion and mage handor some other utility cantrips for your feat spells you preserve low magic while gaining a lot of low magic nifty tricks.

It's true about Bard spells. I always thought that a Bard would make a great Gandalf type character. I think he spent a lot more time influencing and inspiring people than throwing flashy magic around.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Gandalf in the novels never hit anyone with his staff. He was smart enough to realize he had a perfectly good sword for that.

I say if your Staff is not a Quarterstaff then it's not a weapon, and you can just take the Dueling fighting style.

Duelist is quite good when you have that sword in your hand *and a shield in the other*. This guy already is behind because he has less fighting feats/ASI, and isn't wearing heavy armor so... but a mage with a shield seems... well not so mage-ish
 

Protection from energy and protection from evil and good as rituals would be "why would you not have these up all the time?" sort of spells

Because spending all day, every day recasting the same spell over and over isn't much of a way to spend your life? Because you can't afford the constant expenditures of holy water or powdered iron or silver?

Because Protection From Evil And Good lasts for 10 minutes (concentration), and starting a ritual spell (such as Protection From Evil And Good) disrupts concentration, so at best you can have it up only intermittently, 10 minutes on and then 10 minutes plus an action off?

I mean, yes, it's better for it not to be a ritual, but even if it were, if you tried to persuade me that you had those spells up all the time I'd tell you you're nuts.
 

First. Gandalf was a powerful caster. He had the magic, he was just not overt with it. He would've used stuff like divination spells or abjuration spells to buff himself or the party. I.e. stuff that isn't flashy. This is because he wasn't really allowed to use his full strength (banned by basically the gods). The one time he almost does this is when he first comes back to life as the white wizard and nearly kills Aragorn and company due to being confused in the books. Second. Magic in middle earth *does* exist. There *are* wizards, druids, clerics, etc. They just pale in comparison to the named wizards who are in fact demigods. Anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong. Even the movies reference this, where the council first writes off Sauron coming back as "just a necromancer" in the hobbit. The point of Sarumon's line there is that they (being gods) have no reason to concern themselves with a minor mortal threat.

...middle earth soapbox aside, there are a few options:
1) Work with the DM to play off a class's spells as something else. Ranger healing is herbs, entangle as traps/snares, paladin spells as sword techniques or first aid, sorcerer spells as Magic trinkets or gadgets, there is a lot you can do.
2) Allow the player/DM to handle the spells as a roleplaying opportunity rather than a ban. So they are a wizard. Great! How long do you think an openly casting sorceress or warlock would have lasted in the Salem witch trial days? Drive home the fact that magic is rare. Have literally everyone be afraid of the player who is flinging fireballs, or treat the player as a prophet when they start healing people or reading the future. The party will not like the attention longterm. Sure it might be cool at first, but what happens when the evil noble lord hears of this very real threat to his law and order? Or when an entire religion starts cropping up around the cleric and his actual god gets pissed? There is a plethora of ways to handle this.
3) If you must be needlessly strict on "no magic", you should probably play a different system, as literally every class except barbarian in 5th has a magical subclass or magic by base. You would be banning like 90% of all player options depending on how one interprets things. Still, if we must go down that rabbit hole, I would suggest totem barbarian with ritual caster. Make yourself a crazy shaman sort of character. Or battlemaster fighter. It really is the closest to a "tactician", which is what the caster archetype would be in a non-magic game. There is also the artificer if the DM allows it, and the mastermind rogue, or the monk.

I agree with the idea of magic initiate, but question what the real difference is between the feat and a Class level in a magic class. Why would the feat be allowed but not the other? It is still using actual magic.
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
First. Gandalf was a powerful caster. He had the magic, he was just not overt with it. He would've used stuff like divination spells or abjuration spells to buff himself or the party. I.e. stuff that isn't flashy. This is because he wasn't really allowed to use his full strength (banned by basically the gods).

I believe the point of this character is not to make Gandalf exactly, but to see if Champion could be used to make a character that displayed most of the things Gandalf displayed in the day to day of the Hobbit and LoTR. Nowhere is it trying to have all the abilites he would have a a Maia.

The one time he almost does this is when he first comes back to life as the white wizard and nearly kills Aragorn and company due to being confused in the books.
Nearly kills is an awful lot to infer from this paragraph:

The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli’s axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.

Yes that is the entirety of the action in that chapter. Which can be summed up as "Gandalf disarms them." to me that is such a far cry form "Nearly killed."

Second. Magic in middle earth *does* exist.
No one is this thread has said it doesn't.

There *are* wizards, druids, clerics, etc. They just pale in comparison to the named wizards who are in fact demigods. Anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong. Even the movies reference this, where the council first writes off Sauron coming back as "just a necromancer" in the hobbit. The point of Sarumon's line there is that they (being gods) have no reason to concern themselves with a minor mortal threat.
All of this is true, but also completely immaterial to creating a character that only uses the abilities that Gandalf is *shown* to use.
 

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