The OGL, The SRD, and a "New Breed" of Games...

[JoeGKushner]

If any non-WotC company can survive the so-called glut, and many have, then it proves that it is possible and therefore there are other factors at play that are more responsible to the demise of a company than said so-called glut.

What's your definition of many? And are we still talking d20 ONLY or d20 and personal brands or non-d20 altogether? And I agree that there are many other factors at play then glut such as product slow down in the overall RPG market.

Fast Forward Entertainment

Guardians of Order

Sword & Sorcery Studios (Scarred Lands, Relics & Ritual Line, etc, Gamma World, Trinity line up, etc...)

Bastion Press (not dead yet, much like the guy in the cart in the old Monty Python bit)

AEG (maybe World's Largest City but we'll see on that)

Probably dozens of PDF publishers who entry fees are far less than those of their print counter parts that have still fallen out.

Compared to some of the other studios that have come up with non-d20/OGL material, it seems that the non-d20 material is growing no? That the entire promise of a one system game market and the hope of many players, has gone away.

 

[JoeGKushner]

With something like the M&M superlogo, and the Tru20 Logo the change in in your hands really (And I'm not arguing it shouldn't be, as you are well within your rights to hold it there. I'm simply saying that because you maintain a level of control, the change wouldn't be as organic.)

Personally, I think that's an awesome thing. My only 'worry' would be that GR could put in controls to kill anything that's 'better' than what their doing but having no idea how their licensing deals work, nor really worrying about it, it's not something I'm going to lose a lot of sleep over.

Out of the thousands of d20 products, the amount of what I'd consider real inovation could probably be numbered under 100. and I'm not saying that's a bad thing mind you as dungeon crawls and numerous PrCs and feats help build up the system initially.

And another 'potential' problem is system revision. Even though it's very young, Mutants & Masterminds has already gone through revision. Any systems coming out for that old system may not work with the new one, and even more importantly, just like with 3.0 and 3.5, the preception may be that people will want to 'wait' for a revision. I know 3.5 kicked a lot of publishers in the bad place and hurt them and d20 in general.

 

[Mark]

You make an assumption there was more of great value to come from companies who have either chosen to retreat or been driven from the field. I do not see evidence in support of that nor do I agree with that assessment. You fail to realize, also, that while there is even a single company capable of publishing material, any author or artist might be utilized by them. I am astonished by how swiftly nostalgia has clouded your intellect.

 

[Scribble]

Sword & Sorcery Studios (Scarred Lands, Relics & Ritual Line, etc, Gamma World, Trinity line up, etc...)

Sword and Sorcery left because WW wanted to put its resources into the new WOD stuff didn't it?

Compared to some of the other studios that have come up with non-d20/OGL material, it seems that the non-d20 material is growing no? That the entire promise of a one system game market and the hope of many players, has gone away.

But that's the thing... the Non-d20 stuff IS growing, but a lot of it came out of the original d20 version or idea...

So if they in turn were open?

Would it lead back to the best ideas and concepts merging back into one?


(and again, it's a purely philosophical sort of, open ended question, as opposed to an argument of what should be...)

 

[JoeGKushner]

You make an assumption there was more of great value to come from companies who have either chosen to retreat or been driven from the field.

Uh, what part of where I talk about 90% of that stuff coming out being garbage did you miss?

I do not see evidence in support of that nor do I agree with that assessment. You fail to realize, also, that while there is even a single company capable of publishing material, any author or artist might be utilized by them. I am astonished by how swiftly nostalgia has clouded your intellect.

But there will always be such companies due to the very low cost of entry. As it is, I think many of them are going to forego the d20 thing and do their own systems or using the OGL, leverage their brands and PI into things that will NOT be effected by any changes to the SRD/OGL. In terms of nostalgia, I remember when game companies made AD&D products but didn't use the AD&D logo. It didn't always go well for them. Mayfair's Role Aids anyone?

 

[JoeGKushner]

Sword and Sorcery left because WW wanted to put its resources into the new WOD stuff didn't it?

Not as far as I know. The game lines were just selling poorly. "Well, SL failed, time to try something else. Well, R&R failed, time to try something else." and in terms of selling poorly, I should say that I'm not saying they were failures, just not doing well enough to continue publishing 'em. heck, I think that they still do some World of Warcraft material.

But that's the thing... the Non-d20 stuff IS growing, but a lot of it came out of the original d20 version or idea...

I'd agree that's not necessarily true today. One year ago, I might've thought so, but Burning Empires has nothing to do with d20 is based off Burning Wheel. Qin, Weapon of the Gods, Delta Green, etc... have nothing to do with d20.

So if they in turn were open?

Well, even with semi-open systems where it's easy to work with the publisher, like AE, I think people probably wouldn't buy it unless it was highly highly highly touted in enough numbers to make continuing publishing it worthwhile. Maybe Savage Worlds and other low cost licensing will prove me wrong though.

Would it lead back to the best ideas and concepts merging back into one?

Possible but doubtful. How many innovations did D&D 3.5 take from third party material? In almost all cases the 'official' material may be influenced by third party products but part of that probably comes from using the same talent pool and part of that is that the 'official' company will probably never rely on outside sources to codifiy the official playing through venues like the RPGA.

(and again, it's a purely philosophical sort of, open ended question, as opposed to an argument of what should be...)

I'm talking pure crap based on my own observations, nothing more. No insiders info here but I've got shelves full of d20 material from companies where even the best material didn't result in a company doing well.

 

[Mark]

Uh, what part of where I talk about 90% of that stuff coming out being garbage did you miss?

That has nothing to do with my disagreement over your bemoaning the loss of some companies that have published what you perceive as high quality products.

 

[Scribble]

But there will always be such companies due to the very low cost of entry. As it is, I think many of them are going to forego the d20 thing and do their own systems or using the OGL, leverage their brands and PI into things that will NOT be effected by any changes to the SRD/OGL. In terms of nostalgia, I remember when game companies made AD&D products but didn't use the AD&D logo. It didn't always go well for them. Mayfair's Role Aids anyone?

Sure I remember Role Aids! They were great!

Issues like that almost seem to have pushed forward the idea of open source.

And yeah, since the games are no longer effected by changes to the SRD, if they were to open their trademark up, would we then see those games grow into something else?

And possibly a combination of what worked from one system mixed into what worked from another?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Well, yes and no.

I realize (as I said earlier in the thread) that by virtue of the OGL and use of the SRD it is in fact open. So yes, what I was saying was other companies opening up their rules and trademarks, with their own SRDs and d20 logo type things.

I'd say that the opening up of trademarks is not actually relevant, and that the point Chris Pramas makes is the fundamental issue - they may not be releasing all their text online in a downloadable SRD, but the new mechanics and rules which are being invented *are* being released as OGC and so new people can pick them up and develop them further.

I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that the companies who took the risk of pushing the boundaries of design (and largely going OGL) are the ones who have succeeded, and those who were less adventurous and stuck more closely to the d20 trademark have not done so well.

This observation is skewed by my personal preferences, of course!

Cheers

 

[Henry]

I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that the companies who took the risk of pushing the boundaries of design (and largely going OGL) are the ones who have succeeded, and those who were less adventurous and stuck more closely to the d20 trademark have not done so well.

I'd agree with this. Where would Green Ronin be had they not kept pushing creative boundaries and trusting their authors? The trend started with Aaron Loeb's Book of the Righteous (where they kept trusting him, several deadlines and word counts after the fact) and Steve Kenson's sweeping mechanic-revisions culminated in arguably one of the top 2 most successful gaming companies around today. Same thing with Monte's Malhavoc imprint: He produced the kind of stuff he loved to use, damn the logistics, and is a household name among RPG gamers pretty much. You have to be bold, but you have to be GOOD, as well.