I don’t get the impression that the Union-Krill conflict has been protracted. Mercer could very well be the first officer captured. But your point is nonetheless a valid one.
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The Orville Season Two - Thoughts?
- Thread starter Richards
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He may be the first in that conflict, but certainly, there have been other conflicts. The policy exists for a reason, right?
A lot of people would look at this sort of thing and tell us it is a plot hole. I look at it and try to figure out what the fact of it implies about the world (okay, galaxy) in question. Why is it that this *hasn't* gotten around so that everyone knows Union officers give fake codes first?
For example: The Union always wins. Those who have discovered this in the past have since been beaten or subsumed, so that they don't talk about it.
Folks were all worried about how the admirals were going to pitch a fit over letting her go. Nobody mentioned how many people were going to get court marshaled for letting a hostile spy onto a starship crew!!! Someone had to do some serious records-falsification, and is gonna get hung from a yardarm for their trouble...
Fer giggules, I checked out the show’s fan wiki.
http://orville.wikia.com/wiki/Krill
According to it, The Union has yet to declare war in the Krill, but that “the conflict” has gone on for a few years, and that the nature of the disagreement means it “could last decades”. The wiki doesn’t detail much in the way of ship-to-ship skirmishes, instead noting that the Krill have done raids in installations & colonies over the past year or so.
In a way, the dynamics between the two is less like tahat of the Federation-Klingon interactions and more like the earlier back and forth between the Federation and the Romulans. The Romulans started off nuking Fed colonies, and both sides were still in the earliest stages of gathering intel about each other. Remember, the Feds were surprised to note the resemblance between Romulans and Vulcans.
To me, at least, the Union-Krill fight seems inits earliest stages as well. So, like I said, this episode may mark the first capture of a Union officer.
http://orville.wikia.com/wiki/Krill
According to it, The Union has yet to declare war in the Krill, but that “the conflict” has gone on for a few years, and that the nature of the disagreement means it “could last decades”. The wiki doesn’t detail much in the way of ship-to-ship skirmishes, instead noting that the Krill have done raids in installations & colonies over the past year or so.
In a way, the dynamics between the two is less like tahat of the Federation-Klingon interactions and more like the earlier back and forth between the Federation and the Romulans. The Romulans started off nuking Fed colonies, and both sides were still in the earliest stages of gathering intel about each other. Remember, the Feds were surprised to note the resemblance between Romulans and Vulcans.
To me, at least, the Union-Krill fight seems inits earliest stages as well. So, like I said, this episode may mark the first capture of a Union officer.
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CapnZapp
Legend
The first question needs to be:
What do these codes do?
If they allow intruders to hijack the individual ship in question, fine. That's essentially just a computer version of old skool boarding action. (It does beg the question why the Captain does away missions, but never mind)
If they allow intruders to take over the whole network, disable the entire fleet, or some such - that's preposterously stupid.
Remember, we're talking about "give us the codes". We're not talking about breaking the codes, or hacking the network. Essentially, we're talking about intruders that play by the rules, as set up by the defending side. And it simply doesn't work like that.
It is only in stupid action movies running out of time where you can press a self-destruct button that brings down the entire villain HQ, or by a single command can win against the "motherbrain" or somesuch.
In short, it should not be possible for a single captain's "codes" to be valuable enough for the Krill to bother going through with such an elaborate scheme. (If she were a high-ranking officer and did it for personal revenge it would be another story, but the episode clearly establishes that she just happened to hear about the idea and volunteered)
Another way to phrase this: if the Krill can successfully pull off such complete infiltration, they should aim for something much more useful and valuable - yet much simpler - than "the codes".
Even shorter: "the codes" is a stupid short-hand used by sci fi hacks that doesn't know any better.
What do these codes do?
If they allow intruders to hijack the individual ship in question, fine. That's essentially just a computer version of old skool boarding action. (It does beg the question why the Captain does away missions, but never mind)
If they allow intruders to take over the whole network, disable the entire fleet, or some such - that's preposterously stupid.
Remember, we're talking about "give us the codes". We're not talking about breaking the codes, or hacking the network. Essentially, we're talking about intruders that play by the rules, as set up by the defending side. And it simply doesn't work like that.
It is only in stupid action movies running out of time where you can press a self-destruct button that brings down the entire villain HQ, or by a single command can win against the "motherbrain" or somesuch.
In short, it should not be possible for a single captain's "codes" to be valuable enough for the Krill to bother going through with such an elaborate scheme. (If she were a high-ranking officer and did it for personal revenge it would be another story, but the episode clearly establishes that she just happened to hear about the idea and volunteered)
Another way to phrase this: if the Krill can successfully pull off such complete infiltration, they should aim for something much more useful and valuable - yet much simpler - than "the codes".
Even shorter: "the codes" is a stupid short-hand used by sci fi hacks that doesn't know any better.
They told us what they did - or at least what the Krill wanted. They'd provide access to tactical data.
In this case, he wasn't on an away mission. He was on leave, in an area that, to his knowledge, did not have the enemy in it.
Yes, well, FTL travel "doesn't work like that" either, and you don't see folks up in arms about it. Folks can be pretty arbitrary about what they decide to accept and what they won't.
In the real world, though, the easiest way to get access to a system is often still the "human engineering hack" rather than the technical one.
CapnZapp
Legend
Absolutely. I was thinking about the general case.
Sure - but then everything about criticizing a show falls apart. The dangers of generalizing.
Yes. I alluded earlier to the "captain on away missions". Unlike "the codes" that is a necessary part of a show with this structure, and not worth getting riled up by.
Absolutely true. Doesn't change that "give me the codes" doesn't work, though.
Especially for a captain on shore leave. Not only would a spacefaring civilization never have one-factor authentication, the acting captain would have his own codes. Why would the onboard computer allow a mere cartographer (assuming the plan was for her to return alone) access to data unrelated to her field just because she can recite "the codes"?
No, change the plot so that the Krill plan was to replace Captain Mercer with a Krill changed to look like McFarlane and infiltrate not only the ship, but some planned high-level conference with actual sensitive data, and "the codes" start to make sense - since they're now just a small insignificant part (like stealing a bunch of keys, or an ID-card) of a much more ambitious scheme rather than the be-all and end-all of the dastardly plot.
Sure - but then everything about criticizing a show falls apart. The dangers of generalizing.
No, not everything about criticizing falls apart. Criticism about "it doesn't work like that" falls apart when you put a highly fictional universe against ours. Because, well, that highly fictional universe... doesn't work like ours!
Criticism hinging instead on things like internal consistency (as opposed to consistency with our real world), or accessibility, or emotional plausibility of human characters, use of theme, and such - those all still work.
They work, because the show isn't a spy thriller. Trek, and this show by extension, is at its core a morality play. It isn't about technical details or technical correctness - it is about morals, ethics, choices and why we make them. If we accept that, then we can allow for simplification on the technical details, to allow us to get to the real meat of the play in 40 minutes.
They said on screen they were planning to get data out of the shuttle Mercer was flying. The acting captain isn't relevant.
For sake of the morality play - how about we just take it that there is multi-factor authentication, and the codes are only the last element the Krill don't have? No, they don't show that on screen, but they're also merely technical details that don't involve Captain Mercer. We don't waste time on them, and we get to pressuring Mercer, which is the important bit in terms of drama.
No, change the plot so that the Krill plan was to replace Captain Mercer with a Krill changed to look like McFarlane and infiltrate not only the ship, but some planned high-level conference with actual sensitive data, and "the codes" start to make sense - since they're now just a small insignificant part (like stealing a bunch of keys, or an ID-card) of a much more ambitious scheme rather than the be-all and end-all of the dastardly plot.
We dont' do that, because this is an episodic morality play show, not a strongly-arced techno-thriller show. Get with the genre, man! Yes, a show will disappoint you, if you criticize on the basis of not being something it never claimed to be!
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CapnZapp
Legend
Nah, I get the show's genre just right. And there is nothing about "the codes" that is necessary for either the episode or the genre. It's just a lazy worn-out trope.
With the plot you suggested, no, I don't think you do. But, whatever.
For the episode, we need Mercer to have something that the enemy cannot get except directly from a command-level officer. It can't be too specific - if Mercer was part of a particular super-secret project at that time, he wouldn't leave for vacation, but it has to be key information, worth a major operation to get. Since it is key information... and access key is simple enough for everyone to understand. We all have passwords to things.
Is it technically accurate? No. But if you are hung up on that, you don't really get the genre.
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CapnZapp
Legend
Why are you trying to make this about me, and my faculties of comprehension?
I am nitpicking a show that I love. I am clearly displaying the capacity for handwaving certain tropes - such as "Captain Away Mission". I have refrained from commenting about the mind-boggling stupidity that is to have a light-sensitive race whose weakness can be overcome by a mere leather jacket...?
Therefore I ask you to consider if it can't be that certain tropes are needed (or wanted) to support the genre, but that "the codes" is not one of them?
At the very least, stop accusing me of not getting the genre. Is that really the argument you want to insist on?
Now, let me change the subject.
The actress playing the infiltrator was both capable and attractive. Shame the Krill makeup completely obscured both - when I watched the episode I felt bad for her, trying to emote with zero chance of success.
(I get that they came up with the Krill design long before writing this story, and I guess it could be much worse *cough* *cough* discovery klingons *cough* *cough* but I can still wish I could see the actors' faces, can't I)
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