D&D General The Player End Game Problem

[bloodtide]

So, this is a problem that comes up often enough. And just happened to me last weekend. Why do some players want to just jump to the end of the game, but don't really want to end the game. It makes not sense to me. So the current one:

A couple weeks ago Adam came to me all excited about a game plot. His plot is he wants to do a game where he is an elven princess, the youngest ninth in line for the throne. Then the elf kingdom has a bloody coup and she is the only one left. Fleeing the kingdom, she has to struggle and find a way to defeat the new elf king and re take the throne. I ask him how long he wants the game to be, and he responds with "all summer". So to me that is a couple months, at least until August.

I love this sort of game. Rags to riches is one of my favorite game plots. So we do the Zero. Talking it over with Adam, he likes all my vague ideas: The struggle to survive (hard core survival, normal for my games), struggling to find allies, worrying who is friend or foe, having to make bad deals, how far will she go to get her kingdom back and such. Maybe seek out some lost elven magic? Find elven allies? Have a big fight one on one with the elf king? Adam likes it all. Though his only idea/suggestion is "she will go to the human kingdom next door and they will attack the elf kingdom and fix everything." He says it a couple times, as a bit of a red flag.

The game does have two more players, a married couple that are playing background characters. Ian, whose character is the princess's magic sword and Char, whose character is the princess's flying cat familiar. They both want to stay in the background and let Adam lead.

And so three weeks ago, we start the game. The first two games are the back story :The coup happens and the princess goes on the run. So this last weekend, we start session three. What will the princess, alone except for her sword and cat, do first to get on the path to save her kingdom?

So this is where Adam says she will head to the nearby human kingdom for help. So it's a bit of adventure to get to the human kingdom and a bit more to get to the captail and a bit more to get to the royal palace. So the wrinkles start here. All sorts of things are happening all over the place, but Adam is locked into "getting to the human king". So the game rolls on and the princess gets to the human kings court.

When I say "She must wait until the next day" Adam gets antsy, maybe upset. Anything I try and do or make happen in the game, Adam is just like "the princess sits in her room. Can she see the human king yet?"

So the next day comes and the elf princess gets to meet the human king. Now Adam is all like to the king " I need help, when can we leave to get my kingdom back?" I try and slow it down with some role playing, but Adam just has the princess saying things like "lets go!". So I have the king slow things down saying he has somethings to do and will see the elf princess tomorrow with an answer. Adam is all antsy. It's late, so we end the game session here.

As we clean up I get a chance to ask Adam what is going on, but he just acts....I guess confused. I ask him if he wants to run a war game for the two armies fighting....something he NEVER mentioned (and doubt he ever would have thought of as 5E has no mass combat rules). I suggested we can use the ancient D&D Battlesystem Rules. He flat out says he does not want to do that. I ask him if he just wants the human army to auto win vs the elf army? And he just answers with "that is my plan". So, then I ask him if he just wants to end the game here? He gets confused and says no. He never said a word about how his character would be crowed queen and then.......go on adventures? I thought the whole game would be "elf princess tries to get her kingdom back". At last I ask him again that he does want this game to last all summer. He says "yes", but then has to run home and leaves.

So, I'm confused, as are Ian and Char...who don;t say anything as they are playing "background players" too. Though they think Adam is acting odd.

Now, my normal response to something like this might be, next game:

*Delay things in game, by having the king "suddenly and mysteriously" get sick so he can't give and answer to force Adam to role play anything else happening.

*Take the first ten seconds of the next game to say "the human army looses vs the elf army and the elves take over the human kingdom". Then ask Adam what he wants to do.

*Kill off the elf princess (Adam's character) with an assassin and tell him the game is over.

So.....ok, OR I could talk to Adam. Though if you have read a post or two of mine you know it's not my thing to do. By Adams actions, to me, he is either being Clueless(to put it nicely) or he lied about everything he said. Neither makes me think highly of him. So even if I was to "talk" to him....and lay out everything like I did here.....he either "won't understand" or will just "lie more". So that is just a dead end.

But everyone sure makes "talking" sound like some magic problem solver. If I don't just call him clueless or a lair, how do I "Talk to him?" What could I say to get through to him? Does anyone have any idea what he might be thinking? Char thinks he just wants to "do his plan" encase the game ends before he gets to do it.

So how do I "talk" to him to resolve this?

 

[pukunui]

@bloodtide: While I can understand why you're hesitant to talk to Adam, open and honest communication is key in any relationship or group activity. It's possible that Adam may not be aware of how his actions are affecting the game or the other players, or he may have a different idea of what he wants the game to be like.

Before talking to Adam, you might find it helpful to consider what you want to get out of the conversation. Do you just want to clarify the game's objectives and expectations? Do you also want to address Adam's behavior or attitude in the game? Do you want to discuss how to make the game more enjoyable for everyone, including your "background players"?

Once you have a clear goal in mind, try to approach Adam in a non-confrontational manner. You can start by expressing your enthusiasm for the game and the plot that Adam has come up with, and then express any concerns you have about how the game is progressing. You can also ask him how he envisions the game going and see if you can find common ground.

Listen to what Adam has to say and try to understand his perspective. If there are any misunderstandings or disagreements, try to find a compromise or a solution that works for everyone. It may be helpful to establish clear objectives and expectations for the game, and to check in with each other periodically to make sure everyone is on the same page.

Remember that everyone is there to have fun, and that the game is a collaborative effort. With open communication and a willingness to work together, you can hopefully resolve any issues and create a more enjoyable gaming experience for everyone involved.

 

[iserith]

I suggest that this elven princess with more patience from an alternative universe shows up and kills this PC.

 

[overgeeked]

Two things.

First, talk to the player.

Second, watch this and understand that this maybe what's going on with the player and their character. Some NSFW language.

 

[Charlaquin]

Is it possible that Adam’s idea was for a character backstory, and that he was under the impression that the stuff you went over for session zero was just going to be a short prologue before a normal D&D campaign in which he didn’t already know the overall plot?

 

[iserith]

Don't start talking to players and lowering yourself to their level now. Hold the line, king.

 

[overgeeked]

Expanding on the idea in the video...

Yes, of course the character is going to try to resolve this situation as quickly and efficiently as possible. That makes 100% sense from a character and story perspective. What would make no sense at all would be for the character to just shrug and wander around not trying to resolve the problem immediately. Going off on endless side quests that have nothing to do with their situation makes zero sense for the character or story. But, that's what you need/want the character to do. So leverage one to get the other.

You have a character with a goal that's driving them to action, that's more than most referees ever get.

So use that. All you have to do is put obstacles in the character's way. Make the character earn the aid of the neighboring human kingdom. No monarch would just say "yes" and throw their entire kingdom's resources at placing this young princess on the throne. But they would use the situation to their own advantage.

What's the history between the elf and human kingdoms? What ties do they have? What ancient grudges still linger? What political problems does the human monarch have that a desperate outside agent could help with? What other problems could the monarch use help with? Why wouldn't the human monarch pretend to help then betray the princess? This princess is the sole rightful heir to a neighboring kingdom. Any monarch worth their salt would capture the princess and ransom her, use her as a bargaining chip, or use her to gain power over the elf kingdom.

Where are the citizens of the elf kingdom? How loyal are they to the royal family? What are they doing about all this? What does the resistance look like in the elf kingdom? There certainly will be resistance. What are they doing to restore the royal family to the throne? What are other factions doing to prevent the restoration of the monarchy? There certainly will be some who want to stop the royal line.

What are the other neighboring kingdoms doing during all this? There will certainly be more than one neighbor who will want to take advantage of this and gain a foothold in the territory of the elf kingdom while they transition governments.

On and on and on. It's a great setup. It sounds like you're frustrated that the player is doing the most logical thing in their situation, asking for help from powerful people, but don't know how to handle it. Build out the world around this nugget and see where the friction and tension is.

Watch this series by Matt Colville on politics in games. It's amazing advice for the kind of game it looks like you're running now.

 

[Milieu]

So.....ok, OR I could talk to Adam. Though if you have read a post or two of mine you know it's not my thing to do. By Adams actions, to me, he is either being Clueless(to put it nicely) or he lied about everything he said. Neither makes me think highly of him. So even if I was to "talk" to him....and lay out everything like I did here.....he either "won't understand" or will just "lie more". So that is just a dead end.

If your approach to talking is predicated on the other person being clueless or a liar and assuming that talking is a dead end, it's not a surprise that it doesn't work out for you.

Though his only idea/suggestion is "she will go to the human kingdom next door and they will attack the elf kingdom and fix everything." He says it a couple times, as a bit of a red flag.

He told you multiple times he wanted to have the human kingdom attack and fix everything, and you're trying to avoid that. From his perspective, maybe he thinks you're the one who's clueless or a liar. This is why you need to talk, to try to clear up the misunderstanding.

Now, my normal response to something like this might be, next game:

*Delay things in game, by having the king "suddenly and mysteriously" get sick so he can't give and answer to force Adam to role play anything else happening.

If he's already saying the princess sits in her room doing nothing but waiting to talk to the king, this will only annoy him and make the issue worse. Especially if you don't talk to him and he doesn't understand what you're trying to force him to do.

*Take the first ten seconds of the next game to say "the human army looses vs the elf army and the elves take over the human kingdom". Then ask Adam what he wants to do.

*Kill off the elf princess (Adam's character) with an assassin and tell him the game is over.

These are just being petty, especially the last one. The best thing to do is to talk to him, not try solve it in game in a contrived, heavy-handed way (but which still doesn't tell him what you want him to do other than "not that").

But everyone sure makes "talking" sound like some magic problem solver. If I don't just call him clueless or a lair, how do I "Talk to him?" What could I say to get through to him? Does anyone have any idea what he might be thinking? Char thinks he just wants to "do his plan" encase the game ends before he gets to do it.

So how do I "talk" to him to resolve this?

Don't confront him. Don't accuse him of lying. Don't even make it about him. Say something like, "I'm confused. I thought we agreed this game would take all summer. But if the human kingdom attacks and fixes everything now, it seems like the game's over already; I didn't make any plans for what comes after she retakes the throne. What's supposed to happen the rest of the summer? Do you want her to go on quests as the queen? Or were you expecting more obstacles that you need to clear out before the humans agree to help? We seem to have a misunderstanding, so help me understand where you're coming from with this."

If you absolutely must do it solely in game (even though you really shouldn't), say it through the king. "What's in it for me? Why should I care whether you're restored to the throne? Unless... [Insert quest to hold up the princess's end of the bargain]" Or "I'd love to help you, but we have our own problems. [Insert quest to fix their problems and free up the army/other resources needed to attack the elf kingdom]".

 

[mamba]

I am not sure how they reconcile ‘I talk to the king today, he sends his army in a few days time and they take over the elven kingdom’ and the campaign taking a few months still.

Is everything from here on battles to retake the kingdom? Is most of it after they ascend the throne (and if so, what is that, it seems to never have come up)? I would ask the player that.

Also, if the king sends his army and takes the elven kingdom, I would not just have him hand it over… I’d say they attack because it is ripe for the taking and then keep it and get rid of that meddling princess

The king could also play it straight (he still should look out for some sufficient benefit to him), not betray her but say something like ‘I’d love to help, but when I send my army, I expose my kingdom and my neighbor will invade, there is already tension at the border’ and have her fix this (and promise / do other things to make it worthwhile)

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Obviously the king will require the princess to kill all the rats in the castle cellar before he's willing to support her quest.