D&D General The Player End Game Problem

[Li Shenron]

I don't think Adam wants to play a game, I think he just wants to tell a story, that is why the DM (or the game really) is getting in his way. Maybe try to forget about D&D and just change the whole thing to cooperative storytelling, and change yourself from DM to simply roleplay NPCs according to Adam's instructions.

 

[Larnievc]

Why not just give him what he wants? Then start a new campaign. Or carrying on with the character’s further adventures?

 

[payn]

 

[Umbran]

So this is where Adam says she will head to the nearby human kingdom for help. So it's a bit of adventure to get to the human kingdom and a bit more to get to the captail and a bit more to get to the royal palace. So the wrinkles start here. All sorts of things are happening all over the place, but Adam is locked into "getting to the human king". So the game rolls on and the princess gets to the human kings court.

When I say "She must wait until the next day" Adam gets antsy, maybe upset. Anything I try and do or make happen in the game, Adam is just like "the princess sits in her room. Can she see the human king yet?"

So the next day comes and the elf princess gets to meet the human king. Now Adam is all like to the king " I need help, when can we leave to get my kingdom back?" I try and slow it down with some role playing, but Adam just has the princess saying things like "lets go!". So I have the king slow things down saying he has somethings to do and will see the elf princess tomorrow with an answer. Adam is all antsy. It's late, so we end the game session here.

Obviously, we don't know exactly what is in Adam's head, but we might make guesses... Their play is consistent with someone who doesn't get what's expected of them, or who doesn't know what hooks to pull on.

You speak here about "slowing down" the action. The player pretty obviously doesn't want to slow down. They are laser-focused on their goal, and that's actually pretty reasonable for the character. What we don't know is what else there is for the player to work with.

Some players are great at making up things from whole cloth to work with. Some, when given no path to follow, will say things like, "If I cannot see the king, I'm going to go down to the kitchens, find out what his favorite meal is, find out if there's any rare ingredients they'd need to make that meal, and go acquire them as a gift for the king..."

Other player's won't. They will wait for you to lay out pieces that are pretty clearly for them to work with, and start to work with them.

Rather than, in her meeting with the king, "slowing down with roleplay," (which isn't specific, but doesn't sound like the roleplay is directly relevant to the goal) you might have had more success with the king laying out the current political situation he has to contend with that the elf might engage with to win support for her cause. Or have the king start asking why he should help at all, or what is in this for him, so that the elf might engage with something that moves toward the goal.

If this were a dungeon crawl, you'd have laid out the physical cues of where to go next - the other exits from the room, or interesting features there to interact with. What are the metaphorical interesting features of the king? What other exits from the stall have been presented?

Or, if you expect, when faced with a blank room with no exits, that the players wield pickaxes and dig a new way out, you kind of need to tell them that.

 

[bloodtide]

If your approach to talking is predicated on the other person being clueless or a liar and assuming that talking is a dead end, it's not a surprise that it doesn't work out for you.

So Adam said one thing during session zero, but is now doing another in game play. To me that makes him either clueless or lying.

He told you multiple times he wanted to have the human kingdom attack and fix everything, and you're trying to avoid that. From his perspective, maybe he thinks you're the one who's clueless or a liar. This is why you need to talk, to try to clear up the misunderstanding.

This is because he is going for the human kindgom must just auto win vs the evil elves in five seconds and game over. I guess he was thinking that he'd go "help" and the human kingdom would save the day, end the game and just hand the crown to his character.

And I'm not "avoiding it", like I said in Zero, I'd love to do a MONTHS long game where the player had to 'PLAY' HARD

If he's already saying the princess sits in her room doing nothing but waiting to talk to the king, this will only annoy him and make the issue worse. Especially if you don't talk to him and he doesn't understand what you're trying to force him to do.

This is after him just doing the whine of "My character does noting, just want to see the king".

I don't think Adam wants to play a game, I think he just wants to tell a story, that is why the DM (or the game really) is getting in his way. Maybe try to forget about D&D and just change the whole thing to cooperative storytelling, and change yourself from DM to simply roleplay NPCs according to Adam's instructions.

Now this sounds likely. Though Adam is one of the players that can "only" play D&D 5E. He did make the 5E elven princess character....

Obviously, we don't know exactly what is in Adam's head, but we might make guesses... Their play is consistent with someone who doesn't get what's expected of them, or who doesn't know what hooks to pull on.

Guess it all makes sense if Adam is clueless about everything.

 

[Umbran]

So Adam said one thing during session zero, but is now doing another in game play. To me that makes him either clueless or lying.

And, simple misunderstanding or lack of clarity between you is simply not possible?

What's your goal here - to make things better, or to find out exactly what kind of blame you can lay on Adam?

Guess it all makes sense if Adam is clueless about everything.

From out here, it also makes sense if you didn't ask the right questions, so that you left him clueless. Nobody likes to hear it, but lots communication failures include issues on both sides. It frequently serves to approach communications issues with humility.

 

[pukunui]

@bloodtide: if you persist with the attitude that your player is either clueless or a liar, you might as well just tell him that you can’t keep playing with him because I can’t see how you’ll be able to resolve this issue amicably.

 

[Deset Gled]

Why not just give him what he wants? Then start a new campaign. Or carrying on with the character’s further adventures?

I'd be more tempted to give him what he wants by having the human army fight the elves, and win. But then the humans want to keep control of the elven kingdom themselves. Now Adam still has to get the kingdom back, but he's fighting the humans instead of the elves.

Alternatively, have the human army fight the elf army, and lose terribly. Now, if the characters wants to get their kingdom back, they need to start over with less help.

Either way, give Adam the thing he immediately wants. Just make sure it doesn't result in the end of the campaign.

 

[bloodtide]

And, simple misunderstanding or lack of clarity between you is simply not possible?

This is why I'm asking the question. It's not just specific to Adam, I have had players do this before. I call it the End Game Problem to make it more generic.

A classic one is with the character backstory. The player makes a nice story of how their parents were killed by Orc Bob, and "someday they will get revenge". And something like five minutes into the first game session Joe is like "I want to abandon the group and run off and find and kill Orc Bob".

I'm pretty clear....in a very hard, harsh, brutally honest type of way...so I don't think he misunderstood me. Unless I missed something?

What's your goal here - to make things better, or to find out exactly what kind of blame you can lay on Adam?

I would like to figure out what changed or what went wrong. The first two sessions, escaping from the coup, were great. Adam was having fun, and he did not say anything negative at all. Then we start the third game, and it's like he changed.

My goal is to fix whatever went wrong.....I was hopping someone might have some insight as to what did go wrong.

From out here, it also makes sense if you didn't ask the right questions, so that you left him clueless. Nobody like to hear it, but lots communication failures include issues on both sides. It frequently serves to approach communications issues with humility.

I'm thinking in session zero I might have been to vague...for him. In the zero I only say vague things "you might meet friends or foes in your travels", without directly saying things like "oh, I will make some exiled elven families so your character can find them and make them allies by offering them a chance to be welcomed back into your new kingdom." I don't like to "tell the player what to do" or really "give ideas as DM" .

 

[pukunui]

I was hopping someone might have some insight as to what did go wrong.

Since we weren't at your gaming table and can't peer inside Adam's head, I'm not sure any of us can provide much insight as to what went "wrong", other than perhaps the fact that you seem to have prejudiced yourself against your own player. All we have to go on is what you've told us in this thread.