The Ranger: to Spell or not to Spell

[Sunseeker]

Tolkien just didn't dwell on the 25 minutes of spellcasting Gandalf did every morning, casting his 24-hour duration defensive spells on himself.

If you read the book with detect magic up, you can see that for yourself.

Oh we all know that Gandalf just wished himself more wishes.

 

[Grabuto138]

I really like Midnight's take on the Ranger. It was a blend of the wood-crafty expert and Fighter.

In our 2e-3e FR campaign we said "screw it" and made a Ranger the specialty priest of Meliki (or however you spell it). Rangers were priests, and were treated with the dignity of priests when appropriate.

I have a serious bias against casual spellcasters. The ability to magically create something from nothing should be serious business. In most circumstances, the Ranger spells could be accounted for with a "martial practice" or non-magic class abilities.

I agree with the previous posters who suggest that Rangers should choose a tract. The "Defender of the Wild" quasi-drude ranger could have spells. The wood-crafty survivalist should not.

I think the Ranger is an essential archetype for D&D. The two-weapon fighting thing makes no sense to me. My very first character in D&D was a half-orc Ranger with a two-handed sword. Why would a woodsman be more likely to carry the extra weight of a second weapon anyway? Every pound matters in the field.

 

[Kannik]

[MENTION=984]Kannik[/MENTION] & [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] Since we do not know the extent of back grounds and themes, it would be difficult to imagine the the removal of the ranger why still being able to create the ranger archetypes. The multiclassing, skills, and spellcasting system would have to be totally redone.

Well sure.... without knowing how the system will be set up to be able to encompass the myriad of ways people see rangers we don't know if the game could support removing Ranger as a class. However, I would say as long as the game can handle the various 'stylistic' bits the Ranger has been afforded through the years (animal companion, spells, archery, two weapon fighting as the prime four) then Ranger can be in the game, just as a non-class yet still equally-interesting and powerful option, explicitly called out as a ranger, and with rules on how to create the ranger archetypes of editions past, along with new ones. That way I can get the trappings of a ranger I want, without having to take trappings I don't want.

Which would be my preference, obviously.

5E wont be doing that though. I really doubt it will completely reinvent D&D.

Not sure we know what it will and won't reinvent yet. Either way, though, I don't see this as being a horrible dislikable reinvention if they call a non-specific class Ranger a Ranger. The ranger's still in there, only now, instead of choosing from two fighting styles you can choose amongst 20 fighting styles (all the other classes).

peace, and game on!

Kannik

 

[Anguirus]

I created the paladin thread and I think my view is pretty clear. Rangers should have supernatural skills. They really should be a "magical" class, instead of 4E's "sword blender." But that's not the same thing as being a spellcaster. Aragorn didn't cast spells to find the hobbits, but he could be said to have a supernatural divination ability.

Once again, spell slots and preparation doesn't seem to mesh well with how I see the ranger.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

We had this argument a few years ago. Here are a few exerpts of rangers and spellcasting. I saved this info, but I'm not sure who did the research, so I can't give credit to him/her.

"The wood was full of the rumour of him, dreadful tales even among beasts and birds." FotR:75.

A possible use of Speak With Animals, although in Middle Earth, many races can apparently do this without spellcasting (The Dwarves in The Hobbit, Gimli at Kheled-Zaram, Legolas, etc.)

"But in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds. They roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. When they appeared they brought news from afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them." FotR:178-9.

Speak With Animals seems an ability common to all Rangers.

"Many evil things there are that your strong walls and bright swords do not stay. You know little of the lands beyond your bounds. Peace and freedom, do you say? The North would have known them little but for us. Fear would have destroyed them. But when dark things come from the houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods, they fly from us. What roads would any dare to tread, what safety would there be in quiet lands, or in the homes of simple men at night, if the Dunedain were asleep, or were all gone into the grave?" FotR:286.

How, with no spells?

"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Then setting it aside, he turned to Frodo and in a soft tone spoke words the others could not catch. From the pouch at his belt he drew out the long leaves of a plant." FotR:233.

Aragorn examining the Morgul blade, and then healing Frodo.

"'These leaves,' he said, 'I have walked far to find; for this plant does not grow in the bare hills; but in the thickets away south of the Road I found it in the dark by the scent of the leaves." FotR:233.

Could (or could not) be an instance of Locate Animals or Plants.

"'I have no fitting gifts to give you at our parting,' said Faramir; 'but take these staves. They may be of service to those who walk or climb in the wild. The men of the White Mountains use them; though these have been cut down to your height and newly shod. They are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor, and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning. May that virtue not wholly fail under the Shadow into which you go!" TT:319-20.

Faramir, too, seems to have some enchantments.

"'This is an evil door,' said Halbarad, 'and my death lies beyond it. I will dare to pass it nonetheless; but no horse will enter it.'" RotK:58.

Halbarad also shows the foresight displayed by Aragorn, Faramir, Aragorn's mother, etc.

"Then Aragorn led the way, and such was the strength of his will in that hour that all the Dunedain and their horses followed him. And indeed the love that the horses of the Rangers bore for their riders was so great that they were willing to face even the terror of the Door, if their masters' hearts were steady as they walked beside them. But Arod, the horse of Rohan, refused the way, and he stood sweating and trembling in a fear that was grievious to see. Then Legolas laid his hands on his eyes and sang some words that went soft into the gloom, until he suffered himself to be led, and Legolas passed in." RotK:58-9.

Calm Animals?

"If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." RotK:278.

The Dunedain, as all the wise, could speak mind-to-mind, and perhaps read minds. Hence, in 1e, their ability to use all magic items related to ESP, Telepathy, Mind-Reading, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, etc.

There are also at least two instances where Aragorn wakes up out of a sound sleep, somehow sensing that something is wrong... This "sounds" like the use of an Alarm spell, to me.

"Aragorn stirred in his sleep, turned over, and sat up.
'What is it?' he whispered, springing up and coming to Frodo. 'I felt something in my sleep.'" FotR:434.

"'Ah!' said Aragorn. 'So you know about our little footpad, do you? He padded after us all through Moria and right down to Nimrodel. Since we took to boats, he has been lying on a log and paddling with hands and feet. I have tried to catch him once or twice at night; but he is slier than a fox, and slippery as a fish.'" FotR:434-5.

"Nonetheless as the night wore on Aragorn grew uneasy, tossing often in his sleep and waking. In the small hours he got up and came to Frodo, whose turn it was to watch.
'Why are you waking?' asked Frodo. 'It is not your watch.'
'I do not know,' answered Aragorn; 'but a shadow and a threat has been growing in my sleep. It would be well to draw your sword.'" FotR:446.

"There is mischief about. I feel it." FotR:457.

Foresight, too, is common in Tolkien:

"I will follow your lead now - if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, or of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" FotR:339.

"'Farewell, Gandalf!' he cried. 'Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true!'" FotR:378.

"'Alas! Aragorn my friend!' said Eomer. 'I had hoped that we should ride to war together; but if you seek the Paths of the Dead, then our parting is come, and it is little likely that we shall ever meet again under the Sun.'
'That road I will take, nonetheless,' said Aragorn. 'But I say to you, Eomer, that in battle we may yet meet again, though all the hosts of Mordor should stand between.'" RotK:51.

"'Thus we meet again, though all the hosts of Mordor lay between us,' said Aragorn. 'Did I not say so at the Hornburg?'
'So you spoke,' said Eomer, 'but hope oft deceives, and I knew not then that you were a man foresighted.'" RotK:127.

"Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father." RotK:360.

"After her death Denethor became more grim and silent than before, and would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time." RotK:361.

"'Arador was the grandfather of the King. His son Arathorn sought in marriage Gilraen the Fair, daughter of Dirhael, who was himself a descendant of Aranarth. To this marriage Dirhael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the Dunedain were accustomed to marry.
'"Moreover," he said, "Arathorn is a stern man of full age, and will be chieftain sooner than men look for; yet my heart forebodes that he will be shortlived."
'But Ivorwen, his wife, who was also foresighted, answered: "The more need of haste! The days are darkening before the storm and great things are to come. If these two wed now, hope may be born for our people; but if they delay, it will not come while this age lasts."
'And it happened that when Arathorn and Gilraen had been married only one year, Arador was taken by hill-trolls in the Coldfells north of Rivendell and was slain; and Arathorn became Chieftain of the Dunedain. The next year Gilraen bore him a son, and he was called Aragorn. But Aragorn was only two years old when Arathorn went riding against the Orcs with the sons of Elrond, and was slain by an orc-arrow that pierced his eye, and so he proved shortlived for one of his race, being but sixty years old when he fell." RotK:362.

"'In the days that followed Aragorn fell silent, and his mother perceived that some strange thing had befallen him; and at last he yielded to her questions and told her of the meeting in the twilight of the trees." RotK:364.

"'"Then bitter will my days be, and I will walk in the wild alone," said Aragorn.
'"That will indeed be your fate," said Gilraen; but though she had in a measure the foresight of her people, she said no more to him of her foreboding, nor did she speak to any one of what her son had told her." RotK:364.

"'"I see," said Aragorn, "that I have turned my eyes to a treasure no less dear than the treasure of Thingol that Beren once desired. Such is my fate." Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth."" RotK:365.

"'But Aragorn answered: "Alas! I cannot foresee it, and how it may come to pass is hidden from me."" RotK:367.

"'After a few years Gilraen took leave of Elrond and returned to her own people in Eriador, and she seldom saw her son again, for he spent many years in far countries. But on a time, when Aragorn had returned to the North, he came to her, and she said to him before he went:
'"this is our last meeting, Estel, my son. I am aged by care, even as one of the lesser Men; and now that it draws near I cannot face the darkness of our time that gathers upon Middle-earth. I shall leave it soon."
'Aragorn tried to comfort her, saying: "Yet there may be a light beyond the darkness; and if so, I would have you see it and be glad."
'But she answered only with this linnod:
Onen i-Estel Edain, u-chebin estel anim,*
and Aragorn went away heavy of heart. Gilraen died before the next spring." RotK:368.

"'As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six-score years in great glory and bliss; yet at last he felt the approach of old age and knew that the span of his life-days was drawing to an end,long though it had been." RotK:368.

"'Arwen knew well what he intended and long had foreseen it; nonetheless she was overborne by her grief." RotK:369.

Rangers, as all the Wise, seem to be Mind-Readers:

(Mind-Readers)

"Frodo found that Strider was now looking at him, as if he had heard or guessed all that had been said." FotR:186.

"'No more than you can afford,' answered Strider with a slow smile, as if he guessed Frodo's thoughts." FotR:194.

"'Ponies would not help us to escape horsemen,' he said at last, thoughtfully, as if he had guessed what Frodo had in mind." FotR:210.

"And with that word she held them with her eyes, and in silence looked searchingly at each of them in turn. None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her glance." FotR:405.

"'I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses,' said Aragorn. 'Will you not open your mind more clearly to me?'" TT:102.

"'Now, Smeagol!' said Frodo. 'You must trust me. I will not desert you. Answer truthfully, if you can. It will do you good not harm.' He cut the cords on Gollum's wrists and ankles and raised him to his feet.
'Come hither!' said Faramir. 'Look at me! Do you know the name of this place? Have you been here before?'
Slowly Gollum raised his eyes and looked unwillingly into Faramir's. All light went out of them, and they stared bleak and pale for a moment into the clear unwavering eyes of the man of Gondor. There was a still silence. Then Gollum dropped his head and shrank down, until he was squatting on the floor, shivering. 'We doesn't know and we doesn't want to know,' he whimpered. 'Never came here; never come again.'
'There are locked doors and closed windows in your mind, and dark rooms behind them,' said Faramir. 'But in this I judge that you speak the truth.'" TT:314.

"'Do you know the name of that high path?' said Faramir.
'No,' said Frodo.
'It is called Cirith Ungol.' Gollum hissed sharply and began muttering to himself. 'Is not that its name?' said Faramir turning to him.
'No!' said Gollum, and then he squealed, as if something had stabbed him. 'Yes, yes, we heard that name once.'" TT:316.

"But I do not think you are holden to go to Cirith Ungol, of which he has told you less than he knows. That much I perceive clearly in his mind." TT:317.

"'It is a hard doom and hopeless errand,' said Faramir. 'But at the least, remember my warning: beware of this guide, Smeagol. He has done murder before now. I read it in him'" TT:318.

"And then his musings broke off, and he saw that Denethor and Gandalf still looked each other in the eye, as if reading the other's mind." RotK:26.

"'He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try.'" RotK:28.

"'Nay, my friends, I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough - barely.'
He drew a deep breath. 'It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise than what you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill. But I do not think so. To know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not til now. The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Theoden; but Sauron has not forgotten Isildur [or] the sword of Elendil. Now in the very hour of his greatest designs the heir of Isildur and the sword are revealed; for I showed the blade reforged to him. He is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him.'" RotK:52.

"If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." RotK:278."

So, you could just give the ranger about 12,000 special abilities, alarm spell once a day, etc. Or you could just call 'em spells and be done with it.

 

[Minigiant]

Well sure.... without knowing how the system will be set up to be able to encompass the myriad of ways people see rangers we don't know if the game could support removing Ranger as a class. However, I would say as long as the game can handle the various 'stylistic' bits the Ranger has been afforded through the years (animal companion, spells, archery, two weapon fighting as the prime four) then Ranger can be in the game, just as a non-class yet still equally-interesting and powerful option, explicitly called out as a ranger, and with rules on how to create the ranger archetypes of editions past, along with new ones. That way I can get the trappings of a ranger I want, without having to take trappings I don't want.

Which would be my preference, obviously.



Not sure we know what it will and won't reinvent yet. Either way, though, I don't see this as being a horrible dislikable reinvention if they call a non-specific class Ranger a Ranger. The ranger's still in there, only now, instead of choosing from two fighting styles you can choose amongst 20 fighting styles (all the other classes).

peace, and game on!

Kannik

As long as i don't have to spend all my resources (feats, ability scores, skills) to make a ranger, I'd be fine modifying a fighter.

In 4E (before hybrids), I had to make a warlock, multiclass with ranger (for Nature), and take the Skill training in Stealth... just to make a greataxe warrior who can heal, hide, and get along in the wild. That concept didn't come into fullness until level 4 while using all my feats.

I had to bribe the DM with pizza to play a ranger that used fighter powers and use only one feat to MC into cleric.

 

[am181d]

As I mentioned in the Paladin thread, 3e had a solution for this: Give players the option to swap out spellcasting for other options. If I haven't mentioned it yet today, I really, really, really, really want to see some kind of alternate class ability or ability tree option.

 

[Tallifer]

Pretty much.
I don't care how they give rangers healing, antidotes, animal and plant handling, environmental survival, detection, and stealth abilities.

It could be magic
It could be ingrained in the skill system
It could be part of the crafting system
It could just be specific ranger class features

It just has to be there.

Forsooth. Powers, spells, themes, class features, rituals, martial practices. It does not matter how, just as long as my ranger can do what he needs to do in the wild, and as long as he can bring the power of the wild to the dungeon.

 

[TwoSix]

My longest played ranger wielded a greataxe, 4 celestial wolves, a bear, several pouches of wyvern poison, a snare trap, and 7 throwing daggers.

How many hands did your ranger have? And is celestial wolf an exotic or martial weapon proficiency?

 

[Anguirus]

We had this argument a few years ago. Here are a few exerpts of rangers and spellcasting. I saved this info, but I'm not sure who did the research, so I can't give credit to him/her.







So, you could just give the ranger about 12,000 special abilities, alarm spell once a day, etc. Or you could just call 'em spells and be done with it.

Uh.

Hmm.

What?

Virtually half of that is "animal empathy," the other half is "having good Charisma and Wisdom" and a sprinkling of "Main Character Prophecy Power." Oh yeah, "excellent Heal and Craft skills."

I saw scarcely any hand-waving or chanting, exception being his blessing over the Morgul blade.

Spells for rangers were a good idea pre-3E, but now that magic =/= spells they can make the ranger feel a little different. How about a few warlock-like abilities with a nature/blessing/healing theme, some resistances, and an animal companion? That would feel like a ranger.