D&D 4E The reason 4E doesn't work well except for "Dungeon Delves" or "Encounters"

[Mirtek]

Enforcing the rules of the game is not being a dick (even if your players complain).

You can't cover an entire town with a single casting of Undead Ward, period. Sure, take a month and blanket it with 30 castings... costing more like 1000 gp in components. This is available to level 6 characters but it's a serious chunk of change.

Even if such a ward is created, it's too easily broken by any non-undead. And if set against creature types of possible living servants, it actually traps the townsfolk and PCs as much as it keeps the Lich Queen's forces out. There is no "friendlies can pass" or even "I can will the circle to end" clause in the ritual. You could trap yourself forever in your own circle if you're stupid enough while casting it.

In any case, the main difference here with 4e is that PCs don't automatically learn rituals (except for a few specific exceptions). They are by default unavailable. So the "magic arms race" is entirely at the DM's discretion. If the wizard learned Undead Ward, it's because the DM made it available. If the DM is making Undead Ward available in the same campaign world as a lich queen with undead armies, it's the DM's responsibility to sort things out in a way that makes sense.

Well, a case could be made about the rituals that a wizard and some other classes automatically get while leveling.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

What book is Undead Ward in? Isn't it 55 gp per working? How do they get that much money to spend? And if the DM lets PCs work rituals like that for an entire month uninterrupted, maybe the problem isn't the rules.

Edit: Just a reminder that the ritual apparently only works on the ritualist, and not on his friends.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Undead Ward is in Open Grave. And it's full of problems - even if you allow the PCs 30 days to work on it non stop without sleeping the Lich Queen only has problems with it if she's an idiot. Simple blackmail (Do what I say or I will kill your children) could easily get living agents to break the thing as any living being can break it with a standard action.

If you want to be nice to the PCs, have the first agent the Lich Queen captures turn themselves over to the PCs. Then work out how they can hold the barrier without breaking all trade. Sure it's a nuisance for her - but 30 days solid work without sleep ought to be. It's only unbreakable with absolutely no DM creativity.

As for Deathly Shroud, woop de doo! People appear to be undead to the undead. This is not the same as appearing to be under the Lich Queen's control. You seriously think the Lich Queen has never had to deal with a rival necromancer? Someone who would use actual undead against her? You think that the Lich Queen, being a powerful necromancer, has never heard of this necromantic ritual?

Both these rituals are useful for one-off stunts to give the Lich Queen a one off and very minor headache. But the countermoves are very simple (appearing to be undead should be no more of a guarantee of stealth than appearing to be of a certain race or ethnicity). If you're finding them to break your game it's because you're playing your Lich Queen as a complete idiot who isn't taking even the most elementary precautions against what the PCs are doing. (And as for mitigating armies, even if the undead can't get in they can still lay siege - being trapped in a town by an army of undead who never eat or sleep and don't catch diseases can't be a picnic).

 

[Incenjucar]

Um. Fighters can use rituals. Just takes one feat.

 

[Ryujin]

And this powerful lich queen didn't level the town, while the heroes were spending all their time inscribing the circle? Why wouldn't she inscribe a similar Magic Circle against living creatures, to hem the entire town in and starve them out? She doesn't have enough gold to hire a few squads of Orc mercenaries, who could then burn out the town? Intelligent undead, that are likely in charge of her 'vast hordes of undead', don't recognize the party for who and what they are? There are no standing order for the rank-and-file to stop all creatures from passing into certain areas?

You don't have a failure of game system here, you have a failure of logic.

 

[Will Doyle]

The reason is because of rituals: the druid and the wizard have 'em the rest don't.

Although, worth noting that ritual scrolls can be used by anybody: I often drop them as treasure, or at least make them readily available for purchase.

Honestly not trying to be confrontational here, but I don't see the examples you've given as game-breaking for your campaign. The wards that your party throws up should dramatically thwart the lich queen, then she reacts to overcome them. That's just good storytelling: not being a killer DM. If they can infiltrate her army, cool - but she's clever enough to keep her stronghold guarded against just such a tactic. As a lich, she should have a good knowledge of magic, and know how to guard against it.

 

[CroBob]

When my group first got our hands on 4th edition, one of them trapped themselves in a magic ward that nobody in the town could break through.


FOURTH EDITION IS BROKEN, RAWR!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Um. Fighters can use rituals. Just takes one feat.

Two feats. You need training in Arcana or Religion, which are not fighter class skills. (It's easier to multiclass with cleric or wizard or some other class whose multiclass feat gives that skill. But that still costs you that extra feat.)

 

[Incenjucar]

Two feats. You need training in Arcana or Religion, which are not fighter class skills. (It's easier to multiclass with cleric or wizard or some other class whose multiclass feat gives that skill. But that still costs you that extra feat.)

Huh. Never noticed that before. All the more reason that class skills need to die in a fire. That said, you can also get new class skills via backgrounds, though, really, class skills just need to die forever.

 

[Breaks]

Two feats. You need training in Arcana or Religion, which are not fighter class skills. (It's easier to multiclass with cleric or wizard or some other class whose multiclass feat gives that skill. But that still costs you that extra feat.)

One feat.

Bardic Ritualist and Divine Secretkeeper give you relevant skill trainings and ritual casting (and MC bard or invoker) for a single feat.

But as most of the replies on the first page noted, the premise that this exposes a fundamental flaw or weakness of 4e is absurd. You are blatantly disregarding the rules/homebrewing month-long actions, playing your supervillain as if he's dumber than something the ninja turtles might face, and then calling the system you ignored broken.

I realize that's harsh, but I mean no offense. If you homebrew a system that allows for 30 days of uninterrupted casting time for your players, give them any item or ritual they ask for without screening them, don't discuss the horrific side-consequences of cutting a town off from all possible trade/supply routes, and don't have your supervillain actively doing terrible deeds or preparing her own terrifying defenses while the PCs are spending a full month not engaging her, then it's you, not your players and not the 4e ritual system that is causing a balance issue.

Of course you could just ban rituals and carry on playing your villain like Dr Claw.