The RPG Paradox

Alex319

First Post
Now, almost everyone in our group had copies of the PHB, and a handful owned the full set of books and frequently trolled online forums about RPGs to help with their in-game strategizing (or "stat-i-gizing" as I sometimes call it). So that leads us to the big question of this thread: how to preserve the mystery?

Step 1: Customize, damnit!

This one should be easy for any gamemaster with a smidge of experience. You already know how most of the rules work, so just concoct opponents/obstacles/situations that fit into the rules but are aren't yet (or hopefully ever) published.

I think you might be misunderstanding what Marmell is talking about. As I read it, the issue with "mystery" isn't really mystery about the opposing force's capabilities, but rather mystery about the PCs' capabilities.

Overall, I agree with Marmell that a lot of what people want from games can be problematic to put in and still keep it a good game. I can think of more, even broader examples:

Risk to characters: One thing people seem to want is long-term risk to characters: that is, a character can be permanently injured, lose a key item, get a permanent debuff, and so on., and it's not easy to just resurrect yourself or something. This can facilitate themes like self-sacrifice, heroism, and so on.

The problem is: Let's say a character makes a heroic move, and saves his friend but hurts himself to the point where he will never be able to adventure again. What do you do? Do you make the player sit out the rest of the campaign? If so, that's not very fun. Do you let the player make a new character? If so, then there wasn't really any element of "self-sacrifice" involved, because all that happened was that the player got a free character respec.

On a blog post complaining about the lack of risk in D+D 4e I remember seeing a comment like "What's next? There will be respawn points outside every dungeon so that nobody ever has to be dead for more than a few minutes?" This was intended to be an absurd logical extreme, but D+D has had "respawn points" for a long time: it's called "creating a new character and rejoining the party when they leave the dungeon."

Player and character knowledge:
Most of us would probably agree that part of the reason we play RPGs is to do stuff that isn't practical to do in real life. For example, we can't actually fight orcs or cast magic spells in real life, but we can in a game.

One complaint players sometimes have about some games is that the system is too abstract and forces "thinking about the mechanics" rather than "thinking about the game world." This article on "near vs. far thinking" gives an explanation of this distinction:

Tales of the Rambling Bumblers » Blog Archive » Near vs. Far Thinking in RPGs

Of course, the problem is that the more "near thinking" you require, the harder it is to play a character who can do things that you can't do in real life. For example, if the DM actually required players to describe the physical process of picking a lock, say, then it would be impossible to play a thief unless you actually knew how to pick locks in real life. And if you had to give detailed descriptions of, say, martial arts maneuvers in order to use them, then you would have to know a lot about real-life martial arts in order to play an effective martial artist.

Another way of looking at this is the following: Let's say the experience I want to get out of the game is "playing a super-smart engineer who can MacGyver up any gadget he wants on the fly." If all that equates to in game terms is optimizing my character's "engineer" skill and then rolling it every time, then it's not necessarily significantly different in play than any other class that tries to optimize a skill and then roll it when necessary, so it's not likely to provide a satisfying experience of "playing an engineer." On the other hand, if I actually have to describe exactly what components I'm using and how I am combining them to design my gadget, then it's going to be hard for me to be effective unless I actually am a super-smart engineer who can design complicated gadgets on the fly, in which case I wouldn't need to play the game to have that experience. So you probably want something that is in the middle.

The way that a lot of games seem to try to handle this problem is to effectively redesign the whole relevant activity to be something that the players can understand. Combat is a good instance. Take 4e for example. Things like encounter powers, hit points, healing surges, and the action economy have little if any relationship to the kinds of things that people trained in actual fighting think about in a real fight. But in order to have a game that people can play without being trained in actual fighting, you have to get rid of anything that requires knowledge of actual fighting. And then in order to make the game interesting, you have to add the tactical depth back in through the use of artificial concepts.

Another alternative that some games use is to base the system off of real life, and then to use the rules to effectively teach the players the relevant information. So you might have a game where all the martial arts maneuvers are based off of real life, and then the game tries to teach you enough about martial arts to allow you to make informed decisions about strategy. The main complication of this is that real life can be extremely complicated to model accurately (see, for instance, this article: Realistic Firearms in RPGs)

Recreating a Specific Story:

The quote above about "playing out the plot of Lord of the Rings" reminds me of a quote from a blog post (I forget where): "If the goal is to recreate Lord of the Rings, there's already an easy way to do that: bring a copy of the Lord of the Rings books, assign each player a character, and have everyone read their character's dialogue." The point is that the whole point of role-playing games is that you can make decisions and have random events which can take the story in unexpected directions, but if you do that then you're no longer "recreating the story". So again probably what you are actually looking for is something in the middle.
 

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darkwing

First Post
This article is quite insightful, thanks for sharing it with us.

I suppose I don't have a problem with D&D because I never really try to copy Conan or any of the other arch types in entertainment. I just think of my character and the party as "The heroes who do heroic things (tm)." I suppose it's more like a Saturday morning cartoon than any great work of literature and I'm okay with that.
 

Camelot

Adventurer
Yeah, I never understood the desire to play out an already written story. If you know how it's going to end, why bog it down with chance and game mechanics when you can watch the movie or read the book? I like the random aspect for starting a story with no idea where it's going to go, and watch as the characters evolve and the plot grows from one adventure to a whole campaign.
 

triqui

Adventurer
The history of the gaming industry looks like it's saying "structure sells". D&D is not a free-form game. Of the old White Wolf line, which was the most popular: the free-form Mage the relatively ridged Vampire? I can tell you which would address Ari's interests better but at the end of the day print runs will trump niche interest in a niche market.

I agree with you. However, that only means mainstream games are focused on rules and simulation, which is not a bad thing per se. My answer was to Ari, who seems to be looking for a different mindset of rpg, or at the very least that's what I judge his article for. Not mainstream rpg community (if that thing exists, as "rpg" are hardly "mainstream"). Maybe he already knows that system, and does not work for him (specially the loner part). But hey, it's not that far from the rest of things he ask for (I notice he didnt ask for balance in his plea)

However, the Vampire vs Mage might be an oversimplification of the issue. Vampire might sell better than Mage for a couple o reasons beyond the magic system. For example, vampires were (and are) quite popular, and there is a full niche of people wanting to play "the bad guys" as well. Mages were the good guys. That might be a reason.

To be honest, the sucess of Vampire over the RPG in that age might be an example of quite the opposite of your suggestion. Vampire's system was ridgier than Mage's one, but was much more freeform than AD&D, Rolemaster, Call of Cthullu, Runequest, or any non-indie game in the 90s.
 

triqui

Adventurer
Yeah, I never understood the desire to play out an already written story. If you know how it's going to end, why bog it down with chance and game mechanics when you can watch the movie or read the book? I like the random aspect for starting a story with no idea where it's going to go, and watch as the characters evolve and the plot grows from one adventure to a whole campaign.

I think you did not grasp the article well. He is not asking to play an already written story, he's asking to play a cliché. Character evolution and randomness have nothing to do with his article: you can evolve a character in a game were magic is surprising and not a subset of rules. Actually, some might argue that you can evolve them BETTER, becouse the limit is your imagination and not the rules or game balance.
 

phillcalle

First Post
Gurps

D&D can be quite lethal and mysterious in my experience; just don't run it like a video game. The DM can take away raise dead and the like and not artificially limit the monsters to what PCs can defeat (of course, give them clues that they are walking into a death trap...hmmm, this part of the dungeon scares even the drow, perhaps we should avoid it until we scare them too). Anyone playing a wizard can add Bluff to his repertoire of skills and combine that with Prestidigitation for truly awesome bs, for the simple reason that no one except another wizard should ever really know what a wizard is capable of.
 

darkwing

First Post
Another of the more common laments, at least in my experience, is that many games--D&D in particular, but I've heard it about others, too--aren't lethal enough, and therefore not challenging enough.
...
And that, really, is the ultimate RPG paradox: The fact that a game and a hobby originally inspired by some very specific fictional influences is quite capable of creating its own stories, but is woefully ineffective at modeling many of the types of tales on which it's based.
To be fair, I don't know of many fictional influences where the main character dies before the end of the book. The whole "we want lethality" request is pretty absurd on the surface. The only way it could work in a game is either a respawn mechanic (as in World of Warcraft) or a series of characters you're never really attached too (which is not really what RPGs, or 99% of fictional stories, are about).
 

Fridayknight

First Post
Im sorry to post such a short reply, but it is one i dont think we have made yet. I am currently planning my own DND campaign but it really is most important to have something new and remove the unknown in order to create a realistic world, so I am advocating greater use of the random tables. They allow for great encounter-based world-building so long as you can think on your feet. On the issue of character deaths, I have had many of my characters die it does seem unfair when you are not yet ready to be done with their stories and lives but, on the other hand, I have (too) many backup characters that will never see the sun. Perhaps a roving band sort of party could be formed, with 4 or so PCs per player. It would make it a lot more maths work but, as per the points above, we really should be trying to stay with roleplaying rather than wargaming. Thanks, comments appreciated.
 

triqui

Adventurer
To be fair, I don't know of many fictional influences where the main character dies before the end of the book. The whole "we want lethality" request is pretty absurd on the surface. The only way it could work in a game is either a respawn mechanic (as in World of Warcraft) or a series of characters you're never really attached too (which is not really what RPGs, or 99% of fictional stories, are about).

"Song of Fire and Ice" is the only one I can think of (other than plot characters dying, such as Boromir in Lord of the Ring). Well, and Lovecraft stories, but that's another thing.

I fully agree, asking for a game that can, at same time, be a good example of a "pulp" story, an "epic" story, a "realistic" story, and "balanced" game is impossible. A game can be very gamist, very simulationist, or very narrative. But trying to tackle the 3 at the same time, is impossible. A "Conan" game can't be deadly. Conan never dies in the novels, and suffer harm that could vanquish an entire race of dinosaurs in most of them.

The OP actually addressed different "fails" from the RPG, which can be solved (or tried to) one by one, but not all at the same time. The one I'd like more to be addressed would be the lack of mystery in magic (or Tech, etc)
 

Argyle King

Legend
How about a skill-based magic system where you *try* to accopmplish something, but isn't guaranteed to get exactly that? Would that a) keep magic mysterious, and b) still make it worth it to play a spellcaster?


That's actually how magic works in the main game I play which is not D&D. Likewise, I feel that the same system answers the OP's challenge to find a game which has lethal combat, but is also popular... not nearly as popular as D&D, but popular.
 

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