The SHARK HOBGOBLIN
Sixteen Feats?
Very impressive job, SHARK.
I do have a bit of an issue though. How does a creature with more feats than a Great Wyrm Red Dragon only have a CR of 2? I really think you need to cut that list down to 2-3 feats.
Or maybe I read it wrong, and that's just the list of feats that they can pick from. If so, my apologies.
Very impressive job, SHARK.
I do have a bit of an issue though. How does a creature with more feats than a Great Wyrm Red Dragon only have a CR of 2? I really think you need to cut that list down to 2-3 feats.
Or maybe I read it wrong, and that's just the list of feats that they can pick from. If so, my apologies.
Last edited:
RangerWickett
Legend
SHARK, please swing by Natural 20 Press's submissions page and send an email to the submissions coordinator so that lovely company can publish this stuff. 
Oh wait, that's me. RangerWickett@hotmail.com
Oh wait, that's me. RangerWickett@hotmail.com
sword-dancer
Explorer
Hello SHARK
The campaign is going to well for my taste, Mallenar is an very old Vampire with more knowledge than mos old elves,
why is he so easily beaten, ?
When he is outnumbered Why had he attacked?
Think of what a few houndred or thousand special forces Teams of Vampires behind your lines, in your home country , could do?
Why and how did you define and assign the stat rolls?
And when by chance you had overlooked it, I ask again.
Could you Please post the Pantheons of your World, this would be very interesting.
SHARK said:
The campaign is going to well for my taste, Mallenar is an very old Vampire with more knowledge than mos old elves,
why is he so easily beaten, ?
When he is outnumbered Why had he attacked?
Think of what a few houndred or thousand special forces Teams of Vampires behind your lines, in your home country , could do?
Why and how did you define and assign the stat rolls?
And when by chance you had overlooked it, I ask again.
Could you Please post the Pantheons of your World, this would be very interesting.
I've mentioned this before, but, as much as I enjoy the flavor text, I have to share the general bewilderment that this is a first-level, one-hit-die creature. If you want Hobgoblins to have plenty of hit points and lots of Feats, why not make a typical Hobgoblin 4th, 8th, or 16th level? You've given them 16 Feats!
Axiomatic Unicorn
First Post
mmadsen said:
I completely agree.
Everything after the word PHYSIOLOGY is awesome.
But everything before that is an example of making a tough monster by simply ignoring the rules.
A 1 HD humanoid gets 1 feat. You could define them as having Toughness, for example, as a inherent racial bonus, but these feats are described as learned.
It is easy to assume that most every human commoner 1 has been in some fist fights along the way. That does not mean they should get improved unarmed strike as a feat. Same goes for hobgoblins. Feats don't just mean that you are simply experienced with something, but rather that you are notable for your accomplishment.
The same for almost every other feat you have listed. Why does being familiar with all these things automatically translate to being superier in them, as having the feats would indicate?
Human commoners 1 get 1 feat. But if you follow the rational you have used, they should all have numerous skill and craft focus feats, probably alertness and weapon focus in 1 or more simple weapons. They don't because that is not the intent.
If that does not convince you, then turn it around the other way:
How can a hobgoblin possibly train to the point of gaining weapon focus in 3 different weapons plus numerous other combat feats along the way NOT gain multiple levels in fighter as a result of all this training?
(Also, I agree that toughness is weak, but don't you think your version is over the top?)
mmadsen said:
That's what I was trying to say. The average monster would be 60th level or so by the time it could have 16 feats! I'm definitely glad I'm not a player in SHARK's world.
But, it's still impressive how much thought you've put into this. It maybe a little overdone in parts, but a very good effort nonetheless.
SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
Well, I suppose the feats could be trimmed, as desired. However, my rationale for them goes something like the following:
Alertness adds +2 to Listen/Spot
Acrobatic adds +2 to Jump/Tumble
Athletic adds +2 to Swim/Climb
These skill bonuses are simply to not only reflect what many Hobgoblins spend a lot of time doing, but also a natural skill in these activities due to their muscles, coordination, and so on, which are distinctly superior to a Human's, for example.
Skill Focus adds +3 to Ride; This seems appropriate for a race that values riding skills, by often putting their young in the saddle starting at the age of five. Thus, 10-15 years of this kind of focused training, to gain +3 in Riding, when they are probably still going to die a swift death anyways, doesn't seem to be overwhelming.
Toughness adds sufficient initial hit points, thus increasing their survivability from more than one sword-stroke from a PC.
The Weapon Focus skills add only a +1 To-Hit, to such weapons that they have been training with for a lifetime. Say, since they were 5. That's a +1 bonus with those weapons for 10-15 years of practice. Most humans, commoners, and rather more urbanized and civilized folk have their time occupied with a dozen other activities. The Hobgoblins put great emphasis on these weapons from a very young age.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: This is simply to "legalize" the weapon-knowledge for the Hobgoblin character, as to the Hobgoblins, the Khandar isn't an *exotic* weapon.
Sure Aim increases by a gradual bonus to hit, at the rate of +1 point per round of preparation and concentration, before firing, with a maximum of +3. For a society that teaches their young in archery from the time they are five, this seems like an appropriate ability.
Side By Side and Team Flanking simply add a modest bonus to Hobgoblins as they engage in mass combat. Because Hobgoblins are so highly disciplined, and conditioned by long and vigorous practice of team-warfare, and disciplined formations, these two seem appropriate, without providing any overwhelming advantages in any combat that PC's are likely to face with the Hobgoblins.
In thinking about designing races, I envision them en total. What they do, how they do it, what intrinsic physiological and cultural differences set them apart from another race, and so on. It doesn't seem to me that most of the feats really add a massive edge in combat, and most of the benefits are small enough that their inclusion provides mostly cultural and physiological flavour, that adds an overall small incremental bonus, which is tangible of the race's distinctions, without being overwhelming. The actual number of feats, per se, aren't as important as to what the feats really *DO*, or *EFFECT* The main focus, is does the template accurately reflect the creature's physiology, culture, and upbringing?
For example, by looking at the actual skills, feats, and so on, and how they actually work together, compare a 18 year old human Fighter, 1st level, who comes from a typical rural-farming environment. What kind of natural abilities does the human have? Nothing in particular stands out, as it's too varied. What kind of skills should the 1st level Human Fighter have? Well, I would think that he should have a few more than the default rules allow, but there doesn't seem to be too many compelling demands.
Now, imagine an 18 year old Hobgoblin Fighter, who was raised in a fortified town out on some blasted waste where war and death are a regular occurance. From the age of five, he is trained in several weapons, how to wrestle, and kill a man with teeth, claws, his feet, with clever moves designed to crush one's foe quickly. The young Hobgoblin is also trained to ride from the age of five, and to be an expert rider. The Hobgoblin's natural agility, speed, and coordination are honed and sharpened to a fever pitch. In weekly inter-tribal contests, and for hours of training, the young Hobgoblin learns to work with a team, working on footwork, group weapons-practice, and comprehending the tribal horn and flag signals in warfare, to perform the combat manuevers upon command, under stressful conditions of noise, screaming, blood, and smoke.
What is the differnce? To me, it would seem that the two 1st level fighters, young as they are, are not the same. They are vastly different, racially, as in their physiology and physical abilities, as well as an entirely different cultural upbringing.
However, if one operates strictly according to the standards in the MM and Player's Handbook, there won't really be any significant differences to speak of.
Thus, this is some of my rationale behind the design. I could be wrong, and I'm very open to suggestions. I thought I would answer some of the questions, though. I hope I have been helpful, and feedback is always good!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Well, I suppose the feats could be trimmed, as desired. However, my rationale for them goes something like the following:
Alertness adds +2 to Listen/Spot
Acrobatic adds +2 to Jump/Tumble
Athletic adds +2 to Swim/Climb
These skill bonuses are simply to not only reflect what many Hobgoblins spend a lot of time doing, but also a natural skill in these activities due to their muscles, coordination, and so on, which are distinctly superior to a Human's, for example.
Skill Focus adds +3 to Ride; This seems appropriate for a race that values riding skills, by often putting their young in the saddle starting at the age of five. Thus, 10-15 years of this kind of focused training, to gain +3 in Riding, when they are probably still going to die a swift death anyways, doesn't seem to be overwhelming.
Toughness adds sufficient initial hit points, thus increasing their survivability from more than one sword-stroke from a PC.
The Weapon Focus skills add only a +1 To-Hit, to such weapons that they have been training with for a lifetime. Say, since they were 5. That's a +1 bonus with those weapons for 10-15 years of practice. Most humans, commoners, and rather more urbanized and civilized folk have their time occupied with a dozen other activities. The Hobgoblins put great emphasis on these weapons from a very young age.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: This is simply to "legalize" the weapon-knowledge for the Hobgoblin character, as to the Hobgoblins, the Khandar isn't an *exotic* weapon.
Sure Aim increases by a gradual bonus to hit, at the rate of +1 point per round of preparation and concentration, before firing, with a maximum of +3. For a society that teaches their young in archery from the time they are five, this seems like an appropriate ability.
Side By Side and Team Flanking simply add a modest bonus to Hobgoblins as they engage in mass combat. Because Hobgoblins are so highly disciplined, and conditioned by long and vigorous practice of team-warfare, and disciplined formations, these two seem appropriate, without providing any overwhelming advantages in any combat that PC's are likely to face with the Hobgoblins.
In thinking about designing races, I envision them en total. What they do, how they do it, what intrinsic physiological and cultural differences set them apart from another race, and so on. It doesn't seem to me that most of the feats really add a massive edge in combat, and most of the benefits are small enough that their inclusion provides mostly cultural and physiological flavour, that adds an overall small incremental bonus, which is tangible of the race's distinctions, without being overwhelming. The actual number of feats, per se, aren't as important as to what the feats really *DO*, or *EFFECT* The main focus, is does the template accurately reflect the creature's physiology, culture, and upbringing?
For example, by looking at the actual skills, feats, and so on, and how they actually work together, compare a 18 year old human Fighter, 1st level, who comes from a typical rural-farming environment. What kind of natural abilities does the human have? Nothing in particular stands out, as it's too varied. What kind of skills should the 1st level Human Fighter have? Well, I would think that he should have a few more than the default rules allow, but there doesn't seem to be too many compelling demands.
Now, imagine an 18 year old Hobgoblin Fighter, who was raised in a fortified town out on some blasted waste where war and death are a regular occurance. From the age of five, he is trained in several weapons, how to wrestle, and kill a man with teeth, claws, his feet, with clever moves designed to crush one's foe quickly. The young Hobgoblin is also trained to ride from the age of five, and to be an expert rider. The Hobgoblin's natural agility, speed, and coordination are honed and sharpened to a fever pitch. In weekly inter-tribal contests, and for hours of training, the young Hobgoblin learns to work with a team, working on footwork, group weapons-practice, and comprehending the tribal horn and flag signals in warfare, to perform the combat manuevers upon command, under stressful conditions of noise, screaming, blood, and smoke.
What is the differnce? To me, it would seem that the two 1st level fighters, young as they are, are not the same. They are vastly different, racially, as in their physiology and physical abilities, as well as an entirely different cultural upbringing.
However, if one operates strictly according to the standards in the MM and Player's Handbook, there won't really be any significant differences to speak of.
Thus, this is some of my rationale behind the design. I could be wrong, and I'm very open to suggestions. I thought I would answer some of the questions, though. I hope I have been helpful, and feedback is always good!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
SHARK said:
The canonical way to handle this in D&D is to assign hobgoblins 2 or more HD. This improves things like Base Attack Bonus, saves and skill points, as well as hit points. Thus most of the things you mention are handled right off the bat,without any further need for tweaking on your part.
Other than that, you appear to have committed the same fallacy as players who insist that to round out their character concept, they need Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Alertness, Point-Blank Shot, Far Shot, and most every feat in the PHB. As a side-effect, this means that they can't play anything below 10th level because they don't get enough feats.
Things in D&D are handled more abstractly than that. Just because you're a good archer doesn't mean you must have all the archery feats, and just because you're a good swordsman doesn't mean you must have Weapon Spec and Improved Critical. Similarly, being a good soldier doesn't mean you must have all sorts of teamwork-related feats; it just means that you roleplay your character as one who performs well as part of a team, and as DM, you make sure to play these characters with the appropriate tactical smarts.
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