D&D (2024) The sorcerer shouldn't exist

[Corinnguard]

Pathfinder 1st edition has a hybrid class that combines the Sorcerer and Wizard classes together.

Arcanist – d20PFSRD

Maybe someone should convert it to 5e so we can settle this matter of keeping the Sorcerer and Wizard classes around?

 

[Mecheon]

This is false... Spell list very much is key to the wizard class. Jeremy Crawford: "Yes. We get it, that truly has been a key piece of the wizard's identity for a long time. Them having this massive list that no one else has, and we're gonna make sure we protect that."

I mean, I'll put this simply: That isn't good enough. That's a terrible thing to build a class identity around. That's bad design. Its that simple

The wizard has the worst designed sub-classes in this game and should be re-designed from scratch. "Full access to a list" isn't an exciting feature, and it hurts other sub-classes that had way more specific stuff in the past, like Illusionists and Necromancers. Imagine actually having those designed around doing crazy stuff with illusions or being a full and proper necromancer, rather than just any other wizard, or a wizard who abuses action economy to summon too many skeletons

Just saying, sorcerer subclasses all play differently. Can you say the same for wizard ones outside of the Bladesinger?

The sorcerer can't pretend that it is on a path of its own as long as that path is paved with near total access to the wizard spell list

Its on a perfectly good path because it actually has flavour. You're telling me to ignore this lovely fully flavoured curry someone's cooked up that, yeah, may be a bit small, but tastes divine, in exchange for a sloppy huge pile of tasteless Generic Fast Food Meat because its bigger, and insisting we ditch the curry for the slop. Nuts to that, I'm going to pick the option with flavour and taste every time.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Just saying, sorcerer subclasses all play differently. Can you say the same for wizard ones outside of the Bladesinger?

Illusionist actually encourages people to pick different spells and use them creatively. Ironically the bladesinger is at its most effective as a high AC generic wizard. And the illusionist would probably work better as a sorcerer.

 

[tetrasodium]

I mean, I'll put this simply: That isn't good enough. That's a terrible thing to build a class identity around. That's bad design. Its that simple

The wizard has the worst designed sub-classes in this game and should be re-designed from scratch. "Full access to a list" isn't an exciting feature, and it hurts other sub-classes that had way more specific stuff in the past, like Illusionists and Necromancers. Imagine actually having those designed around doing crazy stuff with illusions or being a full and proper necromancer, rather than just any other wizard, or a wizard who abuses action economy to summon too many skeletons

Just saying, sorcerer subclasses all play differently. Can you say the same for wizard ones outside of the Bladesinger?


Its on a perfectly good path because it actually has flavour. You're telling me to ignore this lovely fully flavoured curry someone's cooked up that, yeah, may be a bit small, but tastes divine, in exchange for a sloppy huge pile of tasteless Generic Fast Food Meat because its bigger, and insisting we ditch the curry for the slop. Nuts to that, I'm going to pick the option with flavour and taste every time.

We disagree. Your idea of sorcerer charting it's own path relies on it so completely stealing the wizard's thunder that you contest the very idea that the wizard has anything if it's own. What you are fighting for is a wizard subclass.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This.

When I want to play someone like aragorn, hawkeye, jon snow, black widow, felix jaeger, or any number of mundane but extraordinary people in DnD, I don't want to be told 'nope not allowed'.

I would argue none of those characters with the possible exception of Aragorn are above level 10.

 

[Vaalingrade]

We disagree. Your idea of sorcerer charting it's own path relies on it so completely stealing the wizard's thunder that you contest the very idea that the wizard has anything if it's own. What you are fighting for is a wizard subclass.

Are we just going to ignore the irony of being upset that someone is stealing the wizard's thunder, especially the one the wizard is constantly used as an excuse to deny things to? Including apparently existence?

 

[tetrasodium]

Are we just going to ignore the irony of being upset that someone is stealing the wizard's thunder, especially the one the wizard is constantly used as an excuse to deny things to? Including apparently existence?

I literally quoted Crawford explaining that the wizard's key identity is a their large spell list no one else has in 130. When those "things" are the wizard's spell list exclusives that sorcerers feel entitled to in order to avoid developing "things"that fit the sorcerer's key identity it's the expectation of those "things"itself that is unreasonable.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And yet you ignore the fundamental point: the Wizard is the class with no actual mechanics beyond "cast more spells," "turn some basic spells into cantrips," and "cast some slightly powerful spells an extra time each day." The Wizard is the class where its subclasses do almost nothing, much of it perfectly reduplicated, and which could extremely easily be compressed into a single level plus (optionally) a 1st-level feat. The Wizard is the class that doesn't lift one finger mechanically to do anything of the actual fluff and flavor, no research, no spell development, no publication, no interaction with the academic community. Hell, the Scribes subclass is literally the only one that even has mechanics that actually care about the spell book beyond its purely utilitarian function as a Pokemon card binder learned spell collection.

Everything the Wizard is, including all its special unique spells not shared with Sorcerer, could be reduced to a single Sorcerer subclass and most people would barely notice.

Why is it then the Sorcerer that must go, if it is nearly trivial to condense the Wizard into the Sorcerer with only minor loss, but practically impossible to condense the Sorcerer into the Wizard without gutting most of the class and its subclasses?

The Level Up wizard has a lot more than that. So does the Level Up sorcerer, actually.

 

[Mecheon]

We disagree. Your idea of sorcerer charting it's own path relies on it so completely stealing the wizard's thunder that you contest the very idea that the wizard has anything if it's own. What you are fighting for is a wizard subclass.

I want the wizard to have its own flavour. "A big list" isn't enough of a key identity in a game where you've got fighter, barbarian, rogue and ranger as seperate concepts.

I'm not fighting for a wizard subclass because the wizard's mechanics are awful at emulating and don't live up to the sorcerer flavour. I fight against the idea of merging warlock and sorcerer, but those at least use the same stats and I can see where people are coming from. but wizard? There's nothing there.

I literally quoted Crawford explaining that the wizard's key identity is a their large spell list no one else has in 130. When those "things" are the wizard's spell list exclusives that sorcerers feel entitled to in order to avoid developing "things"that fit the sorcerer's key identity it's the expectation of those "things"itself that is unreasonable.

Well if that's all the wizard has to it? Remove the wizard and retool it. Wider access does not a successful class make.

 

[Shardstone]

I shouldn't exist! Argh!