D&D (2024) The sorcerer shouldn't exist

[CreamCloud0]

Fighter and rogue gain that component through some combination of subclasses feats and magic items.

but they don't 'gain it' though, it's part of them from before they are even born, it's part of literally everything in the fantasy world this is so far before feats and magic items even come into the equation.

Analyze and breakdown your question for us. For purposes of discussion let's say that wotc creates a totally mundane barista inspired subclass that is tuned to compete with the most Christmas tree of Christmas trees magic item feat and spell PCs without the use of feats magic items or spells... What happens to the game when this Rifts inspired totally mundane dragon combat cyborg monstrosity joins the table with mere human vagabonds rogue scholars and city rats?∆. What happens when the totally mundane dragon combat cyborg wants to use the same magic & ultra tech everyone else uses just to keep up to enhance itself?

∆why yes those are race and class options in the same game

going from this, i really think you've misunderstood the point i'm trying to make.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Yes, a sorcerer, but not a wizard, in the second option. The idea was to make wizard a subclass of sorcerer. Spellbooks allow greater spell access is the subclass thing. Which I feel works if you want wzards to have the gift for magic, like Harry Potter.

I said if the ability to use magic is a "gift" you are born with or gain from something, like the sorcerer, then wizards as sorcerers also have the "gift".

The second mind is a world where anyone can learn magic, you don't need it as a gift. If you think that way, it doesn't make sense that wizard should be a subclass of sorcerer. They have no "gift".

A wizard sorce of magic is learning magic -- nothing born with or gained by event. That is second option.

the concept of the wizard as sorcerer subclass is that yes they have the gift of magic, but the spellbook is how they learn to harness it, the wizard subclass may even imply that by following this specific spellbook learning they impose a structure onto their magic to such an extent that it overwrites the original 'flavour' of the source of their magic into this codified format.

it's like, all sorcerer's magic comes to them as this plastic figurine, draconic has a dragon figurine, storm has a thundercloud figurine, wild magic has a roulette wheel figurine, but learning to be a wizard basically means melting that figurine down into lego bricks so you can manipulate it better, and it doesn't really matter what your source originally was because now it's all lego for you to use as you wish.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yes, a sorcerer, but not a wizard, in the second option. The idea was to make wizard a subclass of sorcerer. Spellbooks allow greater spell access is the subclass thing. Which I feel works if you want wzards to have the gift for magic, like Harry Potter.

I said if the ability to use magic is a "gift" you are born with or gain from something, like the sorcerer, then wizards as sorcerers also have the "gift".

The second mind is a world where anyone can learn magic, you don't need it as a gift. If you think that way, it doesn't make sense that wizard should be a subclass of sorcerer. They have no "gift".

A wizard sorce of magic is learning magic -- nothing born with or gained by event. That is second option.

But not everyone who reads spellbooks can cast from them. There's more to it than that or you'd get bookish clerics casting wizard spells.

My take is actually pretty simple. Anyone can learn wizarding magic, but to power it they need to carry out some obscure rituals. And if you haven't carried out some version of those rituals attempting wizarding magic will be ... unpredictable as your magic is balanced differently than it is for wizards. Because wizards take time and effort to keep theirs balanced to allow themselves flexibility. Anyone in theory can learn this - but not everyone does. The gift is self-made through the ritual or rituals. (Different wizards have different rituals, but they all know most of their rituals are basically a mnemonic device so they don't screw them up).

 

[tetrasodium]

but they don't 'gain it' though, it's part of them from before they are even born, it's part of literally everything in the fantasy world this is so far before feats and magic items even come into the equation.

Telepathy is not gained by someone who is quoted m. It's not part of their skill set and not something they were born with

going from this, i really think you've misunderstood the point i'm trying to make.

I'm familiar with mesmer and he's generally considered quite discredited. Ithink you've misunderstood who you were responding to and are relying on telepathic transmission of the point that you are trying to make in order to avoid elaborating and being descriptive of your point. I'm woefully unskilled with telepathy and not seeing where you elaborated,... I'd be thrilled if you could bestow telepathy rather than elaborating but would appreciate either if the point can stand well enough that it allows you to you so so.

 

[Micah Sweet]

and i'm going by the descriptions of the nature of the fundamental world, of which those classes are part of

yes, the fighter and rogue might not use the 'active magic sources' that the other classes use, but that doesnt mean the fighter and rogue aren't using the 'passive magic sources' that it's stated literally everything in the world uses and is built with

And yet, as I've said before, why are there not tons of magical humans running around breaking the limits of mundanity in nearly all published 5e settings? Your description of a magical world doesn't fit the examples of worlds we've seen in many cases.

 

[Micah Sweet]

but they don't 'gain it' though, it's part of them from before they are even born, it's part of literally everything in the fantasy world this is so far before feats and magic items even come into the equation.

going from this, i really think you've misunderstood the point i'm trying to make.

I certainly understand your point, I just don't agree.

Your statement is what you want things to be like, because it supports your narrative. There's no hard evidence either way, and I woukd stop bugging about it if you would admit that neither of us are right.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And yet, as I've said before, why are there not tons of magical humans running around breaking the limits of mundanity in nearly all published 5e settings? Your description of a magical world doesn't fit the examples of worlds we've seen in many cases.

Why does every thread that was about just good and reasonable hatred of sorcerers turn into discussion about supernatural martials?

 

[James Gasik]

On a long enough timeline, every thread devolves into a discussion about martials.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yes, a sorcerer, but not a wizard, in the second option. The idea was to make wizard a subclass of sorcerer. Spellbooks allow greater spell access is the subclass thing. Which I feel works if you want wzards to have the gift for magic, like Harry Potter.

I said if the ability to use magic is a "gift" you are born with or gain from something, like the sorcerer, then wizards as sorcerers also have the "gift".

Right. If one wanted to conceptually merge the sorcerer and the wizard, this would be the way to do it. Wizardry is a way to refine sorcery, implying that wizard is the subclass of the sorcerer and not other way around.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I'd just like someone to admit that the book doesn't say everyone is superhuman.

High level = Superhuman