The stupid expectations of some DMs...

[Shard O'Glase]

I guess there are too many dms on this board. This thread quickly turned into, another player bashing thread.

I just gotta say the players run from x all the time complaint irritates me. Why, because I bet odds are the same DMs who complain about players who run away are the same DMs who complain because there players were so dumb they couldn't see that they were supposed to run from X encounter. If you don't want your players to run you better set up a deal where you agree to make every single encounter easy enough that the players can always win. There should be no encounters that are too tough, or where the players should run away. If not, don't complain when your players actually use their brains and don't leap into every encounter like some moronic hero sterotype that you seem to prefer.

 

[S'mon]

I would consider attacking an animal who has every right to be there as they do just for the XP to be the worst kind of meta-gaming garbage.

Plus it was eating their breakfast...

 

[LostSoul]

I would consider attacking an animal who has every right to be there as they do just for the XP to be the worst kind of meta-gaming garbage.

"Hey look, a dangerous animal. Fighting that would be a great test of my skills and abilities."

How's that?

 

[Squire James]

"Hey look, a dangerous animal. Fighting that would be a great test of my skills and abilities."

Sounds like an entry in the "famous last words" section I read in an old Dragon magazine. I remember these being on the list...

"I pick the lich's pocket."

"They're only kobolds!"

Then there's the Tomb of Horrors Bad list... you know, that place where searching for traps is like casting Detect Evil in the Abyss?

"I pick up the skull."

"I stick my head in the opening and look around."

"I enter the tomb."

 

[JLXC]

Hey JLKC,

We are neighbors, geographically, and cause we like squirrels, and beer. Good to hear from you here!

A Virtual Hello to ya!

 

[JLXC]

When did you start DMing my last group?
"Ack! A commoner with a spoon, run away!"

Heh. My players are more afraid of Huuman commoners than Ogres because "He could be a wizard!"

So this does not turn total player bashing here's a DM Thought.

DM's will rarely fault you for running away from a horde of orcs, a dragon, or other "minor" threats while trapsing through the woods minding your own business. Why should you get involved?

DM's WILL REMEMBER when you see innocents getting wasted because you wont even TRY to help. We Also fault you for hunting some person/thing/quest only to run at the last because the encounter might be dangerous.

WELL DUH! We as the DM are SUPPOSED to challenge you sometimes, this means you may have to deal with powerful foes. You may avoid that encounter, but eventually the DM will set you up another... and another... and another....

You think it's because we're mean? Or is it because being challenged and winning, or even LOSING, is what being a Hero is.

Also special note to players:

When the things you encounter start talking to you, and then you just attack them, and then you are suddenly dead.... it may be because the DM was going to let you off... but you assumed that every encounter is winnable. You're right, they are not ALL winnable, but most of us will WARN you first.

 

[JLXC]

If not, don't complain when your players actually use their brains and don't leap into every encounter like some moronic hero sterotype that you seem to prefer.

This is true. However WHEN you run makes the difference. If you are walking to get milk and a Demon attacks you out of the blue and you Teleport away... well then I don't as a DM have any problems with that.

When your "Good" characters are hanging around a place that gets attacked by a bunch of Ogres and whatnot, and you high tail without a second thought.... well you're not a hero. You don't ALWAYS have to Go Down Fighting to be a hero... but you know what? It Helps. Would your character rather show up in front of his god saying "I gave it my best" or "I meta-gamed and knew that attacking a Dragon was suicide at 4th level, so I let it kill all the villagers, and I didn't know it was just an illusion covering up some orcs attacking, so can I get into heaven please?"

Remember gods are REAL. You're actions speak louder than your words. Just because you live by running while other suffer, does not mean you can "Work off" your cowardice latter. You may be called into question about it.

HERO. The word means something.

Mercenary. That may be what most of YOU think Hero means. I'll take pay to kill the Evil, but not too much Evil at once, and I aint gonna die for ya but I can beat a lot of little evils and gain levels and get tough and maybe THEN I can tackle that Big Evil which is now a Small Evil and so I'm good.

No. You are not, sorry.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

This is true. However WHEN you run makes the difference. If you are walking to get milk and a Demon attacks you out of the blue and you Teleport away... well then I don't as a DM have any problems with that.

When your "Good" characters are hanging around a place that gets attacked by a bunch of Ogres and whatnot, and you high tail without a second thought.... well you're not a hero. You don't ALWAYS have to Go Down Fighting to be a hero... but you know what? It Helps. Would your character rather show up in front of his god saying "I gave it my best" or "I meta-gamed and knew that attacking a Dragon was suicide at 4th level, so I let it kill all the villagers, and I didn't know it was just an illusion covering up some orcs attacking, so can I get into heaven please?"

.

Sure the when is important. But a large part of this thread was devoted to the fact that some dms fail to communciate effectively the situations where you should and should not run. When that was said a bunch of dms ran in getting their dander up and basically said, nope sorry dms are infallible its always the players fault they were wusses when they shouldn't be.

As for your example I'd rather show up before my god and say, hell yeah I ran. It was a dragon, what did you want me to do run in and get my self killed with everyone else. But that may because I rarely have my characters worhsip the god of really dumb people and foolish martyrs. Guess what in that world people don't have to metagame to know some things are out of their league. It would be like me charging a tank with a rock to save some villagers in this world. It wouldn't make me a hero, it would just make me one really dumb dead guy. Yeah sure it may end up being an illusion, but unless you the DM communicates that effectively they think its a dragon, and since there are fights they aren't supposed to win in your world, they use their heads and quickly advance the rear flank. So don't necessarrily blame the characters for not catching on that this is one of those fights where valor is the better part of discretion, instead of discretion being the better part of valor, the DM is painting the scene if the players don't see what you want, it may be because they are lame, but it may be because you described things poorly.

 

[S'mon]

I don't think DMs should be obliged to tell players whenever fighting might not be a good idea, despite appearances (hungry bear in woods) or might be a good idea despite appearances (illusionary dragon). I agree that players should not be expected to have their PCs act suicidally by fighting an apparently massively superior force, except in exceptional circumstances - if the hordes of evil are attacking the Order of Paladins' HQ, it might be expected that the PC paladins would fight grimly to the last before giving up their sacred home to the darkness. In the dragon/village example, I think good-aligned PCs might be best expected to try to evacuate as many villagers as possible and maybe try to distract the dragon long enough for this to happen, even at great personal risk. If your PCs are neutral, one shouldn't expect them to be less than mercenary.

 

[S'mon]

People often complain about PCs using metagame knowledge to act inappropriately. Lack of metagame knowledge may also be a problem though. Eg a player used to killing hordes of orcs may not realise how much tougher big animals like bears are in 3e. I don't think either the GM or players should be complaining if PCs attack a monster without realising its capabilities and PCs are killed. Players are perhaps entitled to complain if there's a completely unavoidable fight which kills their PCs, but not if choices they made resulted in the fight.

I had a problem with lack of metagame knowledge in a high level AD&D game a few years back - a completely novice player was given a 14th level Barbarian PC, "greatest warrior of his tribe". When some wolves (worgs, I think) attacked the party, he turned tail and ran away like a frightened colt, before I could explain that his PC would've known that he could easily beat them. Ah well. Later on he was delighted when his PC managed to kill a night hag, which an experienced player would've seen as an easy fight. This was a case where starting the player out at 1st level would've been better, had that been an option.