The Sunless Citadel 4.5 Edition Conversion

[Myrhdraak]

That all being said, I think 4e's traps are often on the wimpy side. I agree that they should definitely either present the chance for multiple attacks, do some sort of high limited damage, or simply be worth less XP, or otherwise do SOMETHING more. There are some cases where they're not so bad. Pits at least present some problem as terrain, and could possibly disable a character for the whole encounter, or at least a couple rounds. Some other types similarly, but a lot of the 'poison dart trap' kinds of things do seem fairly anemic.

Actually this is a good inspiration for me to go through and do a trap writeup for HoML, because its definitely going to take a bit different spin on these things...

Based on average length of combat in my 4.5 Edition and the average monster damage I have converted the average damage from multiple attacks into a damage output level for single attack traps (se the Conversion Guide page 11). This damage is equal to 60-95% of a Rogues Max HP over the levels 1 to 30. For a Fighter it would be 45-75% of their Max HP over the same levels. I have kept the variation from the rolling of dices limited in order to make sure the likelihood of instant kill not appearing just from a lucky DM roll. Is this to high? It should of course be used with care, but it is the result if you would like to have XP for traps having the same meaning as XP for mosters.

The Sunless Citadell 4.5 Conversion
4.5 Edition Conversion Guide

/Myrhdraak

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Based on average length of combat in my 4.5 Edition and the average monster damage I have converted the average damage from multiple attacks into a damage output level for single attack traps (se the Conversion Guide page 11). This damage is equal to 60-95% of a Rogues Max HP over the levels 1 to 30. For a Fighter it would be 45-75% of their Max HP over the same levels. I have kept the variation from the rolling of dices limited in order to make sure the likelihood of instant kill not appearing just from a lucky DM roll. Is this to high? It should of course be used with care, but it is the result if you would like to have XP for traps having the same meaning as XP for mosters.

The Sunless Citadell 4.5 Conversion
4.5 Edition Conversion Guide

/Myrhdraak

Sure, for any trap that isn't doing some 'other' thing like immobilizing or removing a character from play or whatever.

In HoML the standard damage expression starts at 6-11 damage (8.5 avg). Characters starting HP range is 14 to 22 points. A 'one off' trap would do the limited damage expression of 9-14 (11.5 avg), meaning a low HP character COULD be knocked unconscious by an average trap, if he's really unlucky, but a single trap won't INSTANTLY kill you (though a very dangerous one could, as that would level+5, which would be 33 average limited damage, so you better be darn careful, a level+5 trap is effectively a deathtrap, but then its also a full encounter of its own). As you can see, the curve is a bit different in HoML than in 4e. A level 6 PC would have at least 39 hit points though, and maybe as much as 57. I calibrated the standard damage expression to be just about enough to bloody a character. On the flip side a monster of level 1 can take about 18 damage, up to 48 at level 6, so the numbers are more equal to PCs than in 4e. I haven't entirely calibrated PC damage output, but I think traps will work fine as either standard damage output, or limited for one-shots, with something that has additional effects cutting the damage aspect somewhat (a 10' pit does 1d6 damage, and you're stuck at the bottom for instance, so it seems like that all works OK).

 

[Myrhdraak]

...In HoML

Sorry, maybe I am an idiot, but what is HoML?

 

[Myrhdraak]

Sure, for any trap that isn't doing some 'other' thing like immobilizing or removing a character from play or whatever.

In HoML the standard damage expression starts at 6-11 damage (8.5 avg). Characters starting HP range is 14 to 22 points. A 'one off' trap would do the limited damage expression of 9-14 (11.5 avg), meaning a low HP character COULD be knocked unconscious by an average trap, if he's really unlucky, but a single trap won't INSTANTLY kill you (though a very dangerous one could, as that would level+5, which would be 33 average limited damage, so you better be darn careful, a level+5 trap is effectively a deathtrap, but then its also a full encounter of its own). As you can see, the curve is a bit different in HoML than in 4e. A level 6 PC would have at least 39 hit points though, and maybe as much as 57. I calibrated the standard damage expression to be just about enough to bloody a character. On the flip side a monster of level 1 can take about 18 damage, up to 48 at level 6, so the numbers are more equal to PCs than in 4e. I haven't entirely calibrated PC damage output, but I think traps will work fine as either standard damage output, or limited for one-shots, with something that has additional effects cutting the damage aspect somewhat (a 10' pit does 1d6 damage, and you're stuck at the bottom for instance, so it seems like that all works OK).

Well in my simulation for the 4.5 Edition the first level Fighter will have 31 hp on average and the Rogue 24 hp. A first level trap would do 2d6+7 damage, or 9 to 19 hp damage (average 14 hp), i.e. it would hurt the Fighter or Rogue but not kill them. A deadly threat is Level + 3, which is a 4th level trap doing 2d6+15 damage, or 17 to 27 damage (average 22). It could take out the rogue, and leave the fighter badly hurt. Epic level game play is going to be more dangerous but at that level the PCs also have access to a lot of powerful healing powers.

 

[Garthanos]

Sorry, maybe I am an idiot, but what is HoML?

Heros of Myth and Legend his home derivative of 4e with an awesome name

 

[Myrhdraak]

5. COMBINING ROOMS
4th Edition is very much about tactical combat with larger battle areas, preferably with several tactical options. In many cases it is therefore interesting to look at combining encounters into larger encounters areas, when converting from 5th Edition.
In these first eight encounters at 1st level, there is not so many of these opportunities. Many of the areas are quite stand alone. However, once we get to the kobold complex things start to get interesting. There are three Area 16 (Kobold Guardroom) + Area 19 (Hall of Dragons) + Area 21 (Dragon Throne), which could be seen as one encounter area. Area 20 (Kobold Colony) probably stay where they are if fights break out outside. Area 23 (Underdark Access) might have orders to guard the Underdark access at all cost and might not join a fight outside, at least not initially.
However when I start combining all these rooms I get an 1,985 XP encounter (EL 5½). This is not only a very tough fight, question is if it is going to be very fun with the battle running on At-Will power fumes. I have either the choice of turning more of the kobolds into minions, or I embrace 5th Edition and make kobolds weaker than goblins. Both strategies would work, but to follow my 4.5 Edition design methodology, I will instead try to make the kobolds one step weaker than the goblins, i.e. Level 1/2. This bring the challenge down to 1,240 XP, or a EL 4 encounter, which the party should be able to handle at 2nd level.

The Sunless Citadell 4.5 Conversion
4.5 Edition Conversion Guide

/Myrhdraak

 

[Myrhdraak]

6. TREASURE
4th Edition and 5th Edition differ a lot in the view of treasure. Even though I have reduced the 4.5 Edition allocation of treqase to half (compared to normal 4th Edition), it is most likely going to be more than 5th Edition.
Doing a straight convertion from The Sunless Citadel resultet in 838 gp treasure. I should be at 1,880 gp following my 4.5 Edition rules, which would also mean roughly 2 magic items handed out every level.
In order to reach these numbers I had to almost double the treasures.

• Area 5, increased to two masterwork fire arrows per skeleton.
• Area 12, I gave the dragonpriest a masterwork sylvan armor.
• Area 14, increased the value of the sapphires to 50 gp a piece.

This brought me to 1808 gp which I think is close enough. More treasure will most likely be rewarded in second level of the dungeon.
In the Treasure Appendix you will find my 4.5 Edition conversion of the magic items. When doing the conversion major change is the attack bonus that is reduced due to the bounded accuracy. The other change I do is taking away the cost of the item, and thirdly I add what power source have enchanted the item − arcane, divine, primal, psionic, etc. As different skills are used to find different magic as well as adding flavour to the items, I also intend to use monsters that may have resistance to various types of magic, but not all.

The Sunless Citadell 4.5 Conversion
4.5 Edition Conversion Guide

/Myrhdraak

 

[Myrhdraak]

CREATE UNDEAD RITUAL

Are looking at converting the Night Caller magic item into a 4th Edition version. Problem is that the classic Animate Dead spell do not easily convert to 4th Edition. Either you have to use the summoning rules but then limit the characters action economy. The other option is to look at Figurine of Wonderous Power-kind of magic, which instead limits the Hit Points so they can barely take one hit before disappearing. Designwise it seems to be either or - limit character attacks, or limit monster HP. Have been considering to use Healing Surges to fuel these creations as another option, in order to have creations with both decent damage and HP, and extra actions. Has anybody seen any House Rules in this area that have been tried out in real play? Both as rituals or magic items for monster creation. The Create Scarecrow or Summon Gargoyle rituals seems the closest, but maybe someone have tried other stuff.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well in my simulation for the 4.5 Edition the first level Fighter will have 31 hp on average and the Rogue 24 hp. A first level trap would do 2d6+7 damage, or 9 to 19 hp damage (average 14 hp), i.e. it would hurt the Fighter or Rogue but not kill them. A deadly threat is Level + 3, which is a 4th level trap doing 2d6+15 damage, or 17 to 27 damage (average 22). It could take out the rogue, and leave the fighter badly hurt. Epic level game play is going to be more dangerous but at that level the PCs also have access to a lot of powerful healing powers.

Yeah, the numbers are a bit higher, I didn't especially set out to cut back on hit points, but over time tweaks of whatever sort seems to have had a bit of that effect. Mostly in my system there isn't so much of a range between different classes. Honestly class has become a bit less strictly defined concept in our game. We don't really pay much attention to restrictions based on it, or a lot of prerequisite type stuff anymore, and with hit points being so abstract anyway its hard to say why one character should have more than another (since they don't really track physical toughness for instance, and who's to say that fighters are luckier, more skilled, or mentally stronger than wizards). The upshot being a wizard or a rogue may have less hit points simply because the player doesn't feel the need to crank up CON so much and may play a race that is not quite as tough (this is only a difference of 2 points at most) but anyway the end result is you don't get the 30+ HP bruisers, but the average hit points are not too much different from standard 4e. Damage expressions do tend to be a little higher though. I like tactical fights, but I also like things to be a bit more decisive. I think in some ways it maybe plays out a bit more like your '4.5e' mod, though I did calibrate combats to go 4 rounds, hopefully. Anyway, traps are definitely deadlier!

 

[Garthanos]

another (since they don't really track physical toughness for instance, and who's to say that fighters are luckier, more skilled, or mentally stronger than wizards). The upshot being a wizard or a rogue may have less hit points simply because the player doesn't feel the need to crank up CON so much and may play a race that is not quite as tough !

Ranged combatant vs Melee combatant vs mixed range.... seems a role distinction