The "Superstitious Mumbo Jumbo" Of Dice Rolling

There's a lot of "superstitious mumbo jumbo" (to quote Sir Alec Guiness about The Force in Star Wars') in the world. I take the scientific, naturalistic approach. I don't accept the supernatural as an explanation for anything, so why would I think there can be anything magical or supernatural in dice rolling/games?

There's a lot of "superstitious mumbo jumbo" (to quote Sir Alec Guiness about The Force in Star Wars') in the world. I take the scientific, naturalistic approach. I don't accept the supernatural as an explanation for anything, so why would I think there can be anything magical or supernatural in dice rolling/games?

Photo by Alex Chambers on Unsplash

"You can blow on the dice all you want, but whether they come up 'seven' is still a function of random luck." Barry Ritholtz

How many times do you hear someone say "I'm a bad dice roller," or occasionally, "I'm a good dice roller." This is pure hooey of course: probability governs dice rolling, personal characteristics have nothing to do with it. (Though a few people can consciously control dice when they throw them, which is why you have to throw off a cushion-wall in a casino.) Rather, most people don't understand probability, and some choose poorly about when to rely on the dice, which gives the appearance that there are bad dice rollers or good dice rollers.

Take Dungeons & Dragons for example, or other similar role-playing games. The objective in the game (for most) is to survive, then prosper. Good strategy and tactics in the game is to limit the number of times you have to rely on the dice to bail you out of trouble, and good players do that, while poor players rely on the dice a lot. So of course bad things happen to them following dice rolls. They may get the impression that they are "bad dice rollers", but what they actually are is bad tacticians, or simply unwise. ("He chose . . . poorly" (Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade).)

Let's say there's a chance that you can try periodically in a game to acquire additional assets, but it comes with a risk. One player takes a chance with one sixth likelihood of failure three times; and he/she fails once. Another takes a much worse chance, say a one third chance of failure, and tries six times. They fail twice. The first has failed a little more than average, but only once; the second has failed twice, average, but blames the dice for their greater failure rate (two times instead of one). In reality they only have themselves to blame for relying on the dice, but they turn this into "I've rolled badly." Duh!

If you don't know that there's no such thing as a bad dice roller or a good dice roller, then you probably shouldn't be a game designer, because you won't have a clue about probability. If you want to play games by depending on the dice, more power to you, but you have to understand simple probabilities to design games.

This doesn't stop you from having fun when you play; it doesn't prevent me from "casting spells" with ridiculous magic words (e.g. popocatépetl or ixtaccihuatl) to help someone else playing a game roll well, even though we all know it's ridiculous. It doesn't stop me from advising people to change hands when the rolls aren't going their way. Superstition is common in general, but we all know, or we should know, and I'll occasionally say it even as I indulge in it, this is all BS.

So get a grip on reality: dice are dice, random unless they're weighted unfairly of course, or unless you have a 20 sided die with two 20s and no 1's. (I've got one of those as a lark.) It has to be said though, most commercial hobby dice are likely to have a small bias, the production is just too cheap for anything else. So if someone has a "lucky die," maybe it really is skewed - but then it should be lucky for anyone not just for the owner. Maybe that's why, when somebody owns a "lucky die", they often won't let anybody else roll it.

Reference: "Probability for Game Designers" by James Ernest (Cheap-Ass Games).

contributed by Lewis Pulsipher
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
That's not my read of it. I think you're trying to rationalize the problem away by brushing it off. I think the OP just picked words that look/sound weird to him, and presumably, his expected readers. And by doing so, he fell right into a problem that a lot of people have coming from a dominating culture. He picked foreign words - not nonsense words, foreign words - that sound and look weird to English-speakers regardless of the fact that they are perfectly normal to the people who speak the source language. It is insensitive and, while probably not intended to be overtly racist, comes out of racist relationships between white Anglo-cultures and virtually everyone else.

Sure. I can see your point.

In return, mine would be a riff on when you’re a hammer everything looks like a nail. If you’re an activist or inclined to see racism everywhere, it’s not hard to find it where it isn’t or doesn’t need to be. Intent matters.
 

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jasper

Rotten DM
Don't know why not, the flats are opposite each other. d4s may be a mite difficult to measure.
Dice Caliper maybe wrong word. Ok you people in gambling towns, I need your help. I was watching a documentary on how Vegas keeps things fair, regulated, etc. The show interview one of the state regulators who had a "Dice Caliper". He would got to a casino grab a couple of d6s. Stick in the machine and spin the die. After x spins he could tell if the die was fair. What is the machine? And does Amazon sell them.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Look, my intention is not to start an online argument just for the sake of it. And I don't really think I am being a troll. I understand what you say (I was really following your reasons... until the end, when you told me to chill, that was just condescending and a bit imperative). Nop, I won't chill just because someone tells me is not important or serious that someone ridiculed one of my languages. I suppose is not important, it is just an obscure forum related to a kind of obscure hobby, no big deal.
But that is how it starts, by accepting these little bits, serious things (like xenophobia, misogyny, etc) get normalized eventually. As I said, I don't ridicule other people's cultures, so I expect the same thing. It is just civil.

Actually, "xenophobia" and "misogyny" would probably make great "ridiculous magic words" for roleplaying games being played in non-English languages.

That doesn't mean the topics are unimportant or worthy of derision. It means the words would sound invented and exotic to non-English speakers. Calling them "ridiculous magic words" in that context would be denigrating neither the actual words, nor victims of xenophobia and misogyny, nor the English language, nor Western culture, nor people of European descent.

For that matter, there might be a language in which Abracadabra means "child abuse". Just in case it is, should we tiptoe around that word, treat it with respect, and stop using it as a caricature of magic?

I thinketh not.

So, yeah, chill. Sorry that offends you. I actually completely agree with your political/social objectives...for example Paraxis' response to the thread about sexual harassment turns my stomach...AND I think that hair-trigger indignation hurts the cause by repelling exactly the sort of people who need to be persuaded.
 

lewpuls

Hero
As a Mexican, I have to ask: what do you find ridiculous about popocatépetl and iztacíhuatl?
Ridiculous to English-speakers, of course. (How many do you think can even pronounce them?)

And they sound really interesting and different, at least as I pronounce them (which may not be right, of course).

As the names of volcanoes, they don't have the same kind of context that "xenophobia" and "misogyny" have.
 
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lewpuls

Hero
Wait...does the misunderstanding/superstition that the OP is trying to counter actually exist among gamers?

Sure, I know players who joke about their special D20, or who blow on their dice for important rolls, but as far as I can tell they are ALWAYS joking, or just signaling to the rest of us that it's an important roll. Kind of like how you might knock on wood to signal non-verbally to somebody else that you are hoping for a result you can't control, even if you don't actually believe that knocking on wood prevents bad luck.
Don't underestimate how strongly moderns believe in magic and the supernatural. If we can have flat earthers, we can have dice rollers who really believe their superstitions.
 

Xethreau

Josh Gentry - Author, Minister in Training
A real conversation about probability will also discuss isolating variables. There are many factors that contribute to the natural functions of a given die's probabilities; dice are actually not random, and we take their unknown and forgotten orientation as being synonymous with random. There are all sorts of variables about dice that remain unconscious to most players, such as the actual distribution of mass within the given die, any structural flaws, time rolled from previous observation, actual randomization of rolling technique, etc..

That is to say, there is reason to presume that some techniques produce better random results than others. All I hear in this thread are "The dice gods aren't real," and that's fine, but its also petty. I would love to hear a suggestion like "The dice aren't real, they don't hate you, just learn to play/roll better," or "people employing mysticism are at best wrong, at worst trying to manipulate you" or even "How to reduce cheating: best practices in rolling dice."
 


Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
hmmmm.....I think there is also a lot to the fact that many dice are biased, and people tend to roll the same dice. At our table, there is a d20 that (if legend is to be believed) came with a TORG set back in the day. The TORG die is well-recognized as heavily biased. d20's in general are very easily biased. There is also the fact that many people do not actually roll their dice forcefully enough to get them to "roll" across the table. That can lead to long streaks.
You're absolutely right about the fact that many people don't roll with enough "juice" to really ensure that their dice rolls are as random as possible. In addition, it's also true that many dice, particularly D20s, are biased. As I recall Chessex are biased against 14 and towards 7, though I could be misremembering, due to the way the flashing coming out of the mold works. Still, most dice superstitions are exactly that, or else applications of the "Law of Small Numbers"---a form of the logical fallacy hasty generalization---and other cognitive biases, such as confirmation bias, the availability heuristic, and so on. (Read your Kahneman and Tversky.)
 
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Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
The thing about probability is that it's true for sufficiently large data sets, over time. On a short time scale, with a small data set, you can have a phenomenal run or a poor run and still the probabilities remain true in the larger (data set, time) context.

In other words, mean reversion always returns to the 5% chance for any particular number of a d20, but you can roll 4 20's in a row (0.000625% chance). I'm sure many of us have seen it. We've probably seen over 10000 rolls of a d20 to make it statistically 'true' as well. It doesn't mean that 'magic' moment of witnessing that epic run of rolls is any less memorable!

This is a very good point. We remember streaks like that, especially if something big and bad happens. I know I certainly do, having lost a character in a spectacular bulette attack that scored four 20s and a 19! :erm:

In fact, our intuitive "folk theory" notions of probability are actually biased towards some negative dependence in sequences over time, not independence. So we think streaks are way, way less likely than they really are.

Radiolab did a nice show on the topic of coincidences.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Most cheap dice we use in TTRPGs are finished in tumblers similar to how rocks are polished.

Beloved grognard and founder of Game Science, Lou Zocchi, does a great job explaining it. You can enjoy his videos on the Game Science web site (http://www.gamescience.com/Videos_ep_40.html) or search for him on You Tube.

I'm not a big fan of game science dice though, as I really don't want to spend more more to self-finish the dice (shaving off the mold point and inking the numbers). Today, if you are willing to spend the money, you can buy casino-grade milled dice or highly balanced precision dice that may not be casino grade but are far better balanced than typical dice sold in game stores.
 

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