The "That's Unrealistic!" Retort Compendium

[Dannyalcatraz]

This interpretation actually works whether or not you choose to allow critical hits on such creatures. If you interpret crits as strikes against a vital area, then they have no effect because these creatures have no specific vital areas. If, on the other hand, you interpret a crit simply as a high quality or "ideal" attack, then it works normally because it applies more force to the target than a normal hit and therefore makes the animating magic work harder to keep the creature intact.

The view of the crit as a kind of "home-run hit" where you hit something juuuuust right is attractive, to be sure, but that still depends upon both weapon and target following the same laws of physics. Where bat and ball intersect isn't just a particular spot on he bat, but also a particular spot on the ball so that the transfer of energy from one to the other is damn near perfect. A great home run hit doesn't just leave the bat at one of a certain set of angles, it actually feels different. A normal hit may rattle the bat in your hands, but a great one may hardly tingle; it feels effortless.

The weapon you're wielding may still be following the rules, but the golem's matter is cheating.

It occurs to me as I write this that striking a golem might thus feel "wrong"' and unnatural in a way...like how matches didn't light, food & drink tasted wrong, and gasoline would not ignite in Stephen King's The Langoliers. Perhaps strikes would not sound right, either: a dull thud instead of a crack as you strike a Clay golem; the resonant ring of steel on stone or iron reduced to a muffled clank.

 

[fanboy2000]

Has anyone managed to find examples where someone armed with a melee weapon took down an improbably large creature? The best I've found are crocodile or boars.

Well, there's the Wooly Mammoth. They went extinct about 8,000 years ago (with some isolated pockets lasting longer), and it's undisputed that early humans hunted them.

There's some debate going on as to what caused their extinction, but it's possible that Wooly Mammoths were one of the first species hunted to extinction by humans. This strongly suggests that killing Wooly Mammoths was common practice by early humans armed with weapons less sophisticated than what's available to the average PC.

 

[Gantros]

The weapon you're wielding may still be following the rules, but the golem's matter is cheating.

In 3.5e & Pathfinder, when it comes to resisting damage, a Flesh Golem is as hard as wood, a Clay or Stone Golem is as hard as iron, and an Iron Golem is as hard as Mithral. DR for these creatures is higher than the hardness of objects made of the same substance (aside from the vulnerability to adamantine weapons they all share), so I'm not sure why they should feel softer when struck.

Of course, the rules for breaking objects also appear to allow an untrained commoner with Str 18 and a standard issue greatsword to tunnel through 1 foot of solid stone in under 6 minutes on average, or through the same thickness of solid steel in under 30 minutes. Anyone want to offer a retort for that one?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

... so I'm not sure why they should feel softer when struck.

Not softer, just wrong. As in, the PC, upon striking the golem, does not experience the expected feel and sound of such a strike.

Since this is pure fluff we're talking about, that could be any oddball combo of tactile and auditory- even olfactory- sensations the DM wants.

Perhaps the clay golem is slightly sticky; the iron one rings inordinately loudly; the stone one sounds muffled.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you guys want to keep debating about critting and sneak attacking constructs and undead, can you please fork to a new thread?

As for fighting very large creatures... I don't like how the expectation of realism only applies one way. Oh, the human can't kill the giant with a toothpick (medium sized longsword as viewed by the giant), because it's unrealistic that such a small weapon relative to us could kill a human. But the giant gets a pass on its very existence, which could not happen by those very same laws of physics/biology.

For examples of killing large creatures...it's rather hard because such things simply don't exist in real life save for some animals, but the wooly mammoth is a good example, as stated above. I immediately think of Bokator, where the art was supposedly founded on some dude armed only with a knife defeating a raging lion with a knee to the junk.

"Pronounced "bok-ah-tau", the word comes from labokatao meaning "to pound a lion". This refers to a story alleged to have happened 2000 years ago. According to the legend a lion was attacking a village when a warrior, armed with only a knife, defeated the animal bare-handed, killing it with a single knee strike."

Obviously, no pics to prove it happened, but it sounds plausible and people for millenia have found it to be within their suspension of disbelief.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If you guys want to keep debating about critting and sneak attacking constructs and undead, can you please fork to a new thread?

With all due respect, it's every bit as valid as the ongoing discussion about killing large creatures with small weapons- the people who disagree with why those crits & SAs done occur are arguing from RW material physics; principles of applying force and leverage- just as others are contemplating the improbability of being able to do serious damage to a multi-ton humanoids (which you accurately point out cannot exist due to biology and physics as current science understand) with a piece of steel 5" long powered by arm strength alone.

It may not be your realism issue (it's clearly not mine), but it is for some.

Yes, I realize that the counter I'm proposing is "It's magic!", but I'm forced to do so because from a realistic view, there is no way a golem could even move...so something is clearly mucking with physics.

And then there are all the other issues that followed from that, like how do they continue to attack...

But be that as it may, I personally won't post here any further about this issue...and neither will I fork it. If someone else does, I may show up, though...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

With all due respect, it's every bit as valid as the ongoing discussion about killing large creatures with small weapons- the people who disagree with why those crits & SAs done occur are arguing from RW material physics; principles of applying force and leverage- just as others are contemplating the improbability of being able to do serious damage to a multi-ton humanoids (which you accurately point out cannot exist due to biology and physics as current science understand) with a piece of steel 5" long powered by arm strength alone.

I agree it's a valid topic, and definitely related to realism in game. I guess my issue was, above all else, I was hoping this would be a thread full of examples of "unbelievable" real life accomplishments/feats, or arguments or explanations why something is possible for a human to do. Of course there's going to be some argument on that, and I'm fine with the discussion happening. It's just that...once the same discussion starts dominating the thread for several pages, I'd prefer that it be forked into its own topic. I could certainly include links in the OP to any threads debating the realism of various topics, such as the golem and undead thing as further reference, my concern is more with making a reference thread, though, and thus ease of sifting through is important.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Fair enough- and FWIW, I like the idea of keeping track of links to threads regarding realism...though that might work best as a dedicate database (such as those in my sig)- you might get more assistance from your fellow ENWorlders. Gaigollach (sp?) has a HUGE historical reference thread somewhere in this forum.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, I have his (not even going to try to spell the name) thread subscribed, was going to look through that for information at some point. As for this thread...IF I get a lot of links/pics/videos/etc..., I could try and do a more organized guide, reserving the first dozen posts and just having everything right on the first page in some sort of categories. But that'd be a pretty intense undertaking, I'd rather just see what gets posted here before I go to those lengths. As of now, the thread's small enough to easily read through to find things.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, if nothing else, the undead/golem discussion did turn up video showing that a nearly armless, effectively legless humanoid can nonetheless be an effective grappler...at least within his weight class.