The Time of Troubles, please elaborate...

[SHARK]

Greetings!

I really think it is sad that WOTC has dropped the ball on Greyhawk. They could have done it up really well, and made it the true "default" setting, instead of just abandoning the campaign world, and allowing it to languish. They could have done both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, and liscensed the other game-world out to whoever. That way, they could have two really cool campaign world that they could alternate supplements off of;

FR one month;

Then Greyhawk;

Then FR;

Then Greyhawk;

and so on. They could have done a huge color hardcover on Greyhawk, and done a beautiful job of the whole thing, instead of just dumping leftover scraps from the high table to the dogs of Greyhawk. It's just sad, especially when one can remember how Greyhawk was once supported, so long ago.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[BronzeDragon]

Nighttfall : I will get back to you on that board. Boy, I sure will! But it's 4 in the morning here, and I gotta sleep sometime in my life. Have already registered as a user there, and will certainly start posting.

John : As for ideas for a ToT in Greyhawk, you could use the following.

Perhaps there exists an agreement between the gods that states no one of them will commit his full being to the mortal plane, on pain of retribution from the others.

The reason for this could be that it would give the manifested god a much greater ability to influence the world, and thus break the balance.

Problem is, one of the minor gods decides he's had enough of being bullied, and decides to break the agreement and enters the mortal realm in full splendor. Only to discover he has lost most of his godly powers!

The other gods, suddenly aware there is a violator of the rule, decide to pursue their agreement to the letter and, en masse , enter the mortal realm.

Once the transition is made, the gods discover most of their powers disabled as well. They cannot locate each other by divine means, and they realize, with a shudder, that they might actually be killed. Besides, they discover they cannot return through divine means to their realms.

This sets off a chain of events that could be described as a Time Of Troubles. The evil gods start to plan for ambushes to kill off the good gods, while the good gods look for ways back to their realms that could avoid much bloodshed for the mortals. Meanwhile, the neutral gods run the gamut from greed to indifference to active pursuit of the original sinner.

You have to decide what way back to their realms exists, what kind of plots individual gods would concoct and, most of all, have to arrange things so that, by the actions of your PCs, the world is not turned into a haven for the goody-two-shoes gods.

Remember, everything should be back in a balanced way, even if major players can (and should) be taken off the scales.

 

[rounser]

They could have done it up really well, and made it the true "default" setting, instead of just abandoning the campaign world, and allowing it to languish.

It's a thought, SHARK, but that would leave us with two highly detailed campaign worlds, which would leave a void for a low detail world.

A lot of people prefer to make the world their own, and even cite over-detail and metaplotting as reasons why they dislike FR. The Greyhawk Gazetteers are intended to cater for this audience, the intention being to leave Greyhawk a skeleton that you play D&D in if you're not specifically playing anywhere else.

In essence, Greyhawk is the iconic world. It prevents making up names for towns, cities and kingdoms for that DMG example or this Dungeon magazine adventure.

The problems with this model to older players are that less being released compared to FR, lower physical production values on the core book (not hardback, no colour) and the generic modules being so generic (yet theoretically set in GH) makes GH fans feel second class. It also harkens back to products which featured the logo yet only offered lip service to the world, making it look like nothing's changed, and the world is being misused again.

That's just the books though. I gather that if you subscribe to Dragon magazine and join the RPGA (or just get Dungeon magazine), you'll have plenty of GH material...

Once you see Greyhawk's new role in the scheme of things, the way it's being treated begins to make more sense - even if it's not exactly what you want. I predict that there would definitely be complaints if it was given the level of detail FR is, though...

 

[Hatchling Dragon]

Wasn't there an author roundly reviled by most GH purists? I seem to recall a passage about some female wizard walking into Iuz' throneroom and chastising him? (Makes Elminster look like a piker, I think.... ) )

Augh!! Hit "V" instead of "C" when trying to copy the post so I wouldn't 'loose' it in case my sign-in expired! That time-limit realy should be extended, not all of have word processor software or the desire to type all posts up in them before hand.

Let's try this again, in brief.

You're likely thinking of the part where Zugtomy, Demon Queen of Fungi (from Temple of Elemental Evil fame) and Baba Yaga, the Ancient Evil Crone (witch) and mother to Iuz himself. The Demon Prince Grazzt is his Dad if you were curious, rules something like 3 layers of the Abyss in GH's setting. BY could give 'nasty' lessons to demons, which isn't too suprising conisidering she pretty-much raised herself to at least Demi-God status by her own plotting and what-not.

At the time your encounter took place the 'ladies' in question (Mrs Z and BY that is) were allied (Z was Iuz's Girlfriend remember), not to mention 'sharing' the power of one of the Threoparts, an immensly powerfull Artifact of Evil. Not that this stopped Iuz from plotting and planning his revenge for the wrongs done to him by those two of course.

Hatchling Dragon

 

[coyote6]

The real reason for the Time of Troubles was, of course, that AD&D 1e was being replaced by AD&D 2e, and TSR needed to update the FR campaign set for 2e, so they decided to do some remodelling, and further decided to give some wacky in-game rationales.

I've never quite understood why they thought killing most of the evil gods and replacing them with one guy (who could then be foiled repeatedly) was a good idea, but hey. It's over now.

 

[Derulbaskul]

The real reason for the Time of Troubles was, of course, that AD&D 1e was being replaced by AD&D 2e, and TSR needed to update the FR campaign set for 2e, so they decided to do some remodelling, and further decided to give some wacky in-game rationales.
(snip)

An interesting piece of trivia is that Ed had already had a "Realms Shaking Event" in his home campaign some years before the Time of Troubles. This was the Dawn Cataclysm which besides being mentioned in a number of 2E products as well as the FRCS, also was mentioned in the original Dragon article by Ed on the make up of his home campaign's pantheon some years before FR was published.

OK, maybe that isn't that interesting... but it is trivia.

Cheers
NPP

 

[rounser]

Baba Yaga, the Ancient Evil Crone (witch) and mother to Iuz himself. The Demon Prince Grazzt is his Dad

I think you mean the witch Iggwilv is Iuz's mum, don't you?

 

[Voadam]

For the greyhawk ToT, there are a bunch of options, 1st there is Vecna, in the adventure Vecna Lives, he becomes a greater god and blocks out all other gods except Iuz who is already on Oerth. This could be modified so that they can only enter as avatars and those who are killed lose their connection to Oerth.

Option 2, RttTEE releases Tharizdun who regains evil overpower status and banishes gods to Oerth for their presumption in imprisoning him. The gods squabble and fight and he personally hunts them down (ala Gord the Rogue) until he is overcome, (perhaps banishing the gods and hunting them down overtaxes his newly regained uber god power and he can be overcome by heroic 14th to 18th level adventurers or maybe just lots of concerted god avatars and circle of eight) Once he is reimprisoned, killed or whatever the surviving gods go back to ruling their cosmology in drastically reduced numbers.

Option 3 Ravenloft envelops Oerth, only some prayers to specific gods are answered anymore, are they actually there (risking entering the mists to aid their followers) or is it just evil simulacra of the dark powers.

Option 4, Cosmic cycle comes around and 1e deities and demigods chinese killer of the gods thins the overpopulated herd.

Option 5 divine war, Hextor and Heironius gather their celestial armies lawfully invoke pacts made with ally deities and duke it out en masse, Everybody gets pulled in.

Option 6 Divine assassinations, Go Pyremius! He's out for more than fire now, he wants it all. Starts out with gods dying mysteriously, obfuscation abounds, perhaps rival pantheons get blamed and Divine wars start out leading to greater divine massacres. And all to cover the nefarious activities of one ambitious deity.

I found the ToT books disappointing, the different authors under the same pseudonym really bugged me particularly because cyric changes personality completely from one author to the next. I liked the 2e hardcover descriptions and I found the ToT background information in Faiths and avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman deities great.

I would have loved a similar 2e treatment of all the Greyhawk gods as the FR supplements.

Rose Estes really treated Greyhawk pretty shabbily, Iuz, the descent into the depths of the earth and Lolth's death in one paragraph, etc.

And yes Iggwilv is Iuz's mom not Baba Yaga.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Please don't inflict a time of troubles like event on Greyhawk. Please!

 

[Nightfall]

Why ever not Flex? It's not like it will affect YOUR Greyhawk. Personally I like BECAUSE it will make the players STOP relying on material and asking "Is it cannon?" I never much like that word cannon. Only cannons I want are on gunships!