The trouble with 365_Bazaar

[Bagpuss]

The rules for Immediate Actions are hardly obscure

No but the fact you can't use them during your own turn is. Because until these items and their powers, every single trigger for an immediate reaction is caused by something the opponent does. So the fact you couldn't do them in your turn was covered by the triggering event, these are the first triggers for immediate reactions that I've seen that could be triggered in your turn.

 

[Bagpuss]

Flask of the Dragon Breath - The attack needs to state what type of action it is and what defense it attacks (Reflex?) Again the attack bonus seems high.

Flask of Dragon Breath worded so that it is clear that the breath only be used once at any point during the encounter.

 

[ozziewolf]

No but the fact you can't use them during your own turn is. Because until these items and their powers, every single trigger for an immediate reaction is caused by something the opponent does. So the fact you couldn't do them in your turn was covered by the triggering event, these are the first triggers for immediate reactions that I've seen that could be triggered in your turn.

Actually it's not obscure at all.. it's spelled out crystal clear on page 268.

Once Per Round: You can take only one immediate reaction per round, either an immediate interrupt or an immediate reaction. If you haven't taken an immediate action since the end of your last turn, you can take one when a trigger allows you to. You can't take an immediate action on your own turn.

Emphasis mine, as you can clearly see it's spelled out plainly in black and white. There is nothing about it that isn't obvious.

I can see people wanting it to be a free action so that they can trigger it when ever they want. However even in it's current form it's still a very useful ability to stop any one who's trying to get by you.

If this is going to be an errata thread let's keep it to stuff that actually needs fixed and isn't just a wish list for what we'd like it to be.

Edit: Also your statement isn't entirely true. It is possible to trigger immediate actions on your own turn. Example the halfling racial ability to force the target to reroll it's attack when you provoked an opportunity attack. We didn't notice the rule for the first game but we where still learning everything. Basically it was free movement for me with almost no chance of being hit and it also was free damage if I did it on the fighters marked target.

 

[Kordeth]

I can see people wanting it to be a free action so that they can trigger it when ever they want.

Even that's not necessary--you can have free actions or even nonactions that require a trigger as per PHB p. 268.

 

[duke_Qa]

Rulebook: "An immediate action must be triggered by an event or an action on another combatant’s turn."

Thats how I would read that rule at least. Immediate reactions caused by special weapon attacks would go as "an event". It looks pretty much like a catch-all "This is an 'event' and we can make whatever we like and say it takes an immediate action to use"-clause.

(sorry if the discussion fell into another area or was already mentioned, slow reply)

 

[Bagpuss]

Actually it's not obscure at all.. it's spelled out crystal clear on page 268.

Emphasis mine, as you can clearly see it's spelled out plainly in black and white. There is nothing about it that isn't obvious.

I'm well aware it's there, but if the rules need to be referred to in play then then IMHO that's poor design. One of the goals of 4th was to reduce the number of rules that only come up rarely.

While immediate actions don't come up rarely the fact you cannot use them during your turn only comes up on three occasions. These three items.

Until these items the only immediate reactions were triggered by events caused by an opponent thus HAD to happen in an opponents turn. Hence you didn't need to know they couldn't be used in your turn.

The trigger for these three items can come up in your turn (in fact is more likely to) so in order to understand how these items are used you need to know that immediate reactions cannot be used in your turn. These are the only three occasions this rule comes into play hence the rule is obscure.

If this is going to be an errata thread let's keep it to stuff that actually needs fixed and isn't just a wish list for what we'd like it to be.

It needs to be fixed because it the rule only ever comes into play with these items. A rule in the core book that is only used by three items in the whole of the game is a bad rule. That or the items need to have that rule in their text, because people are going to forget a rule that comes up so rarely.

 

[Mort_Q]

Rulebook: "An immediate action must be triggered by an event or an action on another combatant’s turn."

fixed.

Considering the header for the section you quoted that from is Actions on Other Turns.

 

[Bagpuss]

Edit: Also your statement isn't entirely true. It is possible to trigger immediate actions on your own turn. Example the halfling racial ability to force the target to reroll it's attack when you provoked an opportunity attack.

Actually according to the rule which you pointed out since that is an immediate action the Halfling cannot use it on his turn. Even though the trigger has occurred. Although I suspect you can get round this because it might count as the attacking players turn while he does his opportunity attack. Same technicality would need to apply with powers like Last Ditch Evasion, Unbreakable, etc. if hit by an opportunity attack.

If you are going to allow that because the trigger occurred and not because it was technically the enemies turn for a brief moment, then any of those items could also be used on your turn because the trigger occurs.

All these powers however still trigger off something the opponent does not something the player does. I'd be interested if someone could find an Immediate Action in the PHB that triggers off something the player using it does.

 

[ozziewolf]

I'm well aware it's there, but if the rules need to be referred to in play then then IMHO that's poor design. One of the goals of 4th was to reduce the number of rules that only come up rarely.

While immediate actions don't come up rarely the fact you cannot use them during your turn only comes up on three occasions. These three items.

Until these items the only immediate reactions were triggered by events caused by an opponent thus HAD to happen in an opponents turn. Hence you didn't need to know they couldn't be used in your turn.

The trigger for these three items can come up in your turn (in fact is more likely to) so in order to understand how these items are used you need to know that immediate reactions cannot be used in your turn. These are the only three occasions this rule comes into play hence the rule is obscure.



It needs to be fixed because it the rule only ever comes into play with these items. A rule in the core book that is only used by three items in the whole of the game is a bad rule. That or the items need to have that rule in their text, because people are going to forget a rule that comes up so rarely.

You probably responded before I got my edit so I'll restate it here. You're still wrong it's not just for three items.

It is possible to trigger immediate actions on your own turn.

Example the halfling racial ability to force the target to reroll it's attack. If not for the this rule you could use this when you provoked an opportunity attack.
We didn't notice the rule for the first game but we where still learning everything. Basically it was free movement for me with almost no chance of being hit and it also was free damage if I did it on the fighters marked target.

Lack of familiarity with the rules should not be blamed on bad game design. I know this rule with out having to look it up. The only point that I didn't know it was our first game session. 4th edition has vastly lowered the number of rules required to play the game.

Just because you only knew of these three items doesn't mean that's the only time it ever comes up as I've clearly shown already with my example listed above. The rules are there for a reason. It can and does come up and this item was clearly designed with this particular functionality in mind. The rule wasn't made just for these three items.

 

[Seeker_of_Truth]

If this is going to be an errata thread let's keep it to stuff that actually needs fixed and isn't just a wish list for what we'd like it to be.

My list of suggested errata are things that seem wrong. I think the limited utility of the immediate actions fits into those categories. If that is what is intended I think it should be stated more clearly.