D&D 4E The True Swordmage

[Jester David]

Absolutely not.

But even if I accepted the premise that a 5e Swordmage must do the same specific things a 4e Swordmage does, there is no reason a 5e Swordmage can’t do those things and quite ably fill a dozen or more archetypes in the process.

Sure. It could be the "spellsword" class with the swordmage as one of its subclasses.

But every time I had a similar conversation about the warlord and updating it to 4e I was hit by a dozen comments about how it simply had to do everything it did in 4e. So I'm assuming the same constriction here.

But also, it doesn’t need to be a largely blank slate. As I suggest earlier, of all the classes only maybe 3 fit that description. The only official post-phb class so far absolutely doesn’t fit that description.

Rather, a new class should have a distinct identity, and a 5e Swordmage should be less generic than the 4e Swordmage.

At least in terms of subclasses maybe. A generic one and ones with flavour.

But if you're making a class not for a specific world, you want to cast a wide net and make it as broad as possible to fit as many subclasses and character concepts as possible.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Updating 4e classes is tricky because they have 1-2 things that are assumed and everything else is a power soup of optional powers. Three people couple play swordmages and have entirely different ideas of what the class should do.

Warding. Boosting AC via magic. This could be adding your Intelligence to AC when you have an empty hand and are wearing light armour. Which might be high, but they are meant to be a tanky... Or just boost AC by 2 with a special version of mage armour that still allows you to weak light armour.

Aegis. This might be the big feature, that works simmilar to smite, where you trigger it with a spell slot to teleport themselves or teleport a target.

Not sure if they should attack with Strength/ Dexterity or Intelligence. If the later, Warding should be reduced. With how the hexblade works, it wouldn't be impossible to have it hit off Int.

In my version you just get an AC calculation that allows a shield, equal to 12+Int mod. The class has no particular leaning toward strength or Dex, that way. The plan is to have some techniques require a free hand, and possibly have an option to get a +1 to AC if you fight with only one weapon and no shield. This is the primary Aegis. You also get an Elemental Aegis, which gives a secondary passive benefit, usually involving movement, and an active damage or defense or protection buff, and determines your primary Esoteric Techniques.

Teleportation comes in primarily with the techniques, but I’ve considered making one of the Elemental Aegises focus on it. Probably Lightning (Might change to “storm” so it includes thunder). Lots of good flavor for Teleporting while hitting stuff, force-teleporting enemies, teleport-swapping, etc. imagine a weakish Lightning Bolt where you teleport to the target space after damage is dealt! Imagine if you throw your weapon to create the lightning bolt!

In the next draft, it will support everything from the 4e tank Swordmage, including the teleporting-focuses builds, to an AoE focused stormblade, to a nerdy ritual-expert who excels with time to plan ahead and in exploration and interaction challenges, to an arcane archer, and more.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure. It could be the "spellsword" class with the swordmage as one of its subclasses.

But every time I had a similar conversation about the warlord and updating it to 4e I was hit by a dozen comments about how it simply had to do everything it did in 4e. So I'm assuming the same constriction here.


At least in terms of subclasses maybe. A generic one and ones with flavour.

But if you're making a class not for a specific world, you want to cast a wide net and make it as broad as possible to fit as many subclasses and character concepts as possible.

No, you don’t, though. Other than Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard, which 5e classes cast a wide net? My answer is that none of them do. Not a single one. And honestly even Wizard is questionable. It’s pretty specific. The subclasses are variations within a fairly narrow band.

There is no reason not to use the Swordmage as the name. It’s a good name for a gish class. As long as it has some degree of Elemental focus, magical defenses in place of heavy armor, weapon bond, and an aegis that does magical defense and/or offense stuff, it will fit the name.

And the discussion around the Swordmage isn’t the same as that around the warlord, nor would I even agree that your characterization of warlord discussions is accurate.

 

[NotAYakk]

So, as an idea for a 5eish Swordmage, what if when they cast a spell that doesn't do damage as an action, you get to do a melee attack with the sword?

What inspired that was blade ward as the "swordmage warding" from 3e.

 

[Marandahir]

I'm still not convinced that Swordmage is the best name for this concept, because it's a lazy portmanteau (as is Spellsword, though at least that one sounds like a pun on Sellsword, and suggests a more mercenary concept).

I think we also need to think about a name that encompasses many different magic weapon martial arts, so you could be a "Bowmage" or a "Spearmage" and still feel like the same thing.

It shouldn't need to use a shield to protect itself - that's what the Aegis and Warding are - magical force shielding. This is a common warrior-mage trope, and easily fits in the generic concept.

I'd give the other big feature as being able to channel spells prepared through the weapon of choice - burning the spell slot to do various special effects akin to the spell, or else to change the target of the spell to be "hit by weapon attack you make using your bonded weapon."

I think there exists room for a generic "Warrior-Mage" half-caster that's separate and stands alongside the 1/3 caster Eldritch Knight, and the Bladesinger, Hexblade, Battlesmith, etc martially-oriented arcane subclasses. But it's got to be done right, and finding the room for those specific genre tropes of esoteric "swordmages" is important. Those can carry a lot of class abilities.

I don't think a spellbook should be required, these should be less the elite scholars at the academy and more the Football quarterbacks who have to keep up that B+ GPA to keep their scholarship.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I'm still not convinced that Swordmage is the best name for this concept, because it's a lazy portmanteau (as is Spellsword, though at least that one sounds like a pun on Sellsword, and suggests a more mercenary concept).

snip

I think there exists room for a generic "Warrior-Mage" half-caster that's separate and stands alongside the 1/3 caster Eldritch Knight, and the Bladesinger, Hexblade, Battlesmith, etc martially-oriented arcane subclasses. But it's got to be done right, and finding the room for those specific genre tropes of esoteric "swordmages" is important. Those can carry a lot of class abilities.

I think the best name for such a class is: Eldritch Knight. It implies magicalness without saying what kind, and weapon use without favoring any type of weapon in particular. Which is of course taken, although with such a class in play it doesn't make sense to have a fighter subclass that sort-of does what a base class does. just like we wouldn't want a 1/3 divine casting fighter subclass when paladin exists.

I also think it should absorb a lot of the existing attempts at gishes, rather than just being added to them. Bladesing, hexblade, arcane archer should be EK subclasses. On the other hand, some options (like battlesmith and Rune Knight) should stay where they are.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm still not convinced that Swordmage is the best name for this concept, because it's a lazy portmanteau (as is Spellsword, though at least that one sounds like a pun on Sellsword, and suggests a more mercenary concept).

I think we also need to think about a name that encompasses many different magic weapon martial arts, so you could be a "Bowmage" or a "Spearmage" and still feel like the same thing.

It shouldn't need to use a shield to protect itself - that's what the Aegis and Warding are - magical force shielding. This is a common warrior-mage trope, and easily fits in the generic concept.

I'd give the other big feature as being able to channel spells prepared through the weapon of choice - burning the spell slot to do various special effects akin to the spell, or else to change the target of the spell to be "hit by weapon attack you make using your bonded weapon."

I think there exists room for a generic "Warrior-Mage" half-caster that's separate and stands alongside the 1/3 caster Eldritch Knight, and the Bladesinger, Hexblade, Battlesmith, etc martially-oriented arcane subclasses. But it's got to be done right, and finding the room for those specific genre tropes of esoteric "swordmages" is important. Those can carry a lot of class abilities.

Philosophically the swordmage stands at the meld point between magic and martial and so half-caster feels right allah eldritch paladin.

I think the 4e swordmage was not actually as fey as it would have been if they had emphasized illusionry and warping of forms which they did not.

Warrior-Mage may be the generic superclass also at that meld point.

 

[Garthanos]

The 4e swordmade does very specific things other than "fight with sword and magic". And a 5e update of the swordmage should do those things, or just call itsell the "spellsword"or "mageknight".

Mageknight as a parent class with the swordmage being pretty close to the 4e swordmage subclass of that kind of works for me name wise.

 

[Garthanos]

But every time I had a similar conversation about the warlord and updating it to 4e I was hit by a dozen comments about how it simply had to do everything it did in 4e. So I'm assuming the same constriction here.

Generally the 5e Warlord ought to be able to do that AND more... The 4e Warlord had role designations and was able to do fair defender function but had plenty of potential design space for the controller that was peaking from behind the curtains and never quite expressed itself.

A Fey Knight archetype could be an illusions to dazzle and morphing and archery Mageknight / Warrior Mage...and might still have the bending through the plane of faery but less elements and less defending

 

[Mirtek]

yes it might have been an illusion but isn’t that roleplaying?

See that's the beauty of it. For me it was the exact opposite. I always envisioned a swordmage as someone who " happens to hold a sword in one hand while using the other for weaving of spells."

That's exactly how I have flavored my 4e swordmage. Also why I took the wizard MC feat (would have done a Swordmage/Wizard hybrid if the rules for hybrid classes had been out at the beginning) and heavily flavored and roleplayed him as much as a boring academic who answered the most simple questions about magic with a lengthy boring rant about the basic "maths" behind the most exciting phenomenon (I sure had maxed my arcana skill to 11, would have gone for Sage of Ages if I had ever reached epic levels) than a dashing swordman