Thelanis and Lamannia

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that one of the dangers of wandering through Dal Quor is that you can wander into the dreams of powerful entities such as imprisoned demon lords and dragons. The danger being that these powerful dreams might never release you.

Dragons are mortal creatures of Eberron, and as such they dream. In a number of locations I've discussed eidolons - mortal entities such as titans or dragons that cast their spirits into Dal Quor in order to escape dissolution in Dolurrh, essentially becoming eternal dreams. A draconic eidolon appears in The Gates of Night, and elsewhere it's suggested that these eidolons could be used as Eberron's answer to vestiges.

However, I personally would never have a demon dream, at least not as humans do. Mortals are creatures of both soul and flesh, and the soul can drift while the flesh sleeps and go to Dal Quor. A demon (or angel, or quori) is a creature of incarnate soul. The two aren't separate pieces, and even if it COULD sleep, if it went to Dal Quor it would go there in its entirety; it wouldn't leave its body behind.

So yes, a draconic eidolon is an "eternal dream", touching on my point about lucid dreaming above - it's an artificial, conscious construct that has no place in the natural order of Dal Quor. As such, it's certainly a place where a mortal soul could be captured and held indefinitely... which is, of course, precisely what is going on in The Gates of Night.

But as always, these are just my thoughts on dreams and demons. I'm sure there's quite a few people who have played with the idea of the dreams of an Overlord; if I wanted to explore that, I might suggest that the Overlord's "dreams" are essentially an entirely separate demiplane - not tied to Dal Quor at all, but with the proper magic a mortal dreamer could be redirected into the slumbering Overlord's dream instead of going to Dal Quor.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Syltorian:

Thanks for clarifying the differences and similarities between Dal Quor and Thelanis.

With that said, it's worth noting that very few native planar inhabitants sleep. Eberron is a planar crossroads, and the mortals of Eberron are touched and influenced by all the planes; when they sleep, they are drawn across that connection to Dal Quor. Angels, fiends, and the like are creatures of a single plane, with no innate connection to Dal Quor.

Outsiders and Elementals don’t sleep by 3.5, if I recall correctly, but regular fey? Cadrel’s story would suggest that they do: the Eladrin dreamt before shunning Dal Quor out of shame, else they would not be able to tell the difference. What about other creatures native to other planes, but not outsider, elementals, or, in the case of Mabar, undead? What about aberrations? Does a Dolgrim dream?

I will note that the decision that 4E elves sleep really bothered me... The fact that elves don't sleep plays a role in the Dreaming Dark novels, and is why Xu'sasar can't join the rest of the party in Dal Quor.

I agree. The inability of elves to dream also seemed to play a big role in the war against Dal Quor, as it allowed the giants to use their slaves as soldiers who could not be spied on as easily (which probably also led to considerable experimenting to replicate that ability), and in turn explained why the elves rose in power as the giants were weakened.  

It's the same sort of thing as the 3E to 3.5E change that afflicted lycanthropes can't pass on the affliction, which undermines the entire foundation of the Lycanthropic Purge; it SEEMS like a trivial change, unless you have a story that's grounded on that one particular detail.

Doesn’t this actually make the specific lycanthropic threat which led to the Purge much more terrifying? Lycanthropes were around long before the 830s: if people were used to afflicted lycanthropes not spreading the curse, they would be all the more horrified if this rule suddenly stopped to be true. This would help hammer home the point that the horrors committed by the Purified were not mindless genocide, but the panic-reaction of well-meaning people who knew the odds were against them.

IIRC, there is a template in one of the Dragon Magazines which made natural lycanthropes create afflicted lycanthropes who could spread the curse. It was a Forgotten Realms based adventure, connected to the beast-god Malar, but I found it suited the Purge quite well. If used, this would mean that under certain special circumstances (say, tongue in cheek, dark rituals and the conjunction of six moons) , the Lycanthropic Threat might suddenly increase again.

They survived the Turning of the Age, but that doesn't mean that they weren't affected and transformed by it. It could be that prior to the turn, they remained fey of Taer Doresh - trapped in Dal Quor, but still true to what they once were. The Turn of the Age ushered in the nightmare reign of il-Lashtavar, and I think it's fair to think that it was this that turned Taer Doresh into Taer Lian Doresh, the fortress of fading dreams. Once they made dreams come true; now they are nightmares.

That would explain why Shan Doresh, a caring hero of his people, changed his attitude so radically. Not that the natural strain of living in a world of horror for millennia as the result of cowardly betrayal would not be sufficient reason for his spite. 

Of course, one wacky thing to explore would be the idea that the fey of Taer Doresh worked closely with the Quori of the previous age and were one of the motive forces that drove the war between the Quori-Giant war. If so, it clearly didn't work out so well for them - they remain trapped and fading - but it could be that they are in part responsible FOR the last Turn.

Interesting. So the Quori War was (possibly) a revenge against Cul’sir? It would be interesting if something, say, a docent or a captured old-age Quori would see an eladrin/elf/fey character as an ally… or someone they blame, in turn, for having led them to utter destruction.

But as always, these are just my thoughts on dreams and demons. I'm sure there's quite a few people who have played with the idea of the dreams of an Overlord; if I wanted to explore that, I might suggest that the Overlord's "dreams" are essentially an entirely separate demiplane - not tied to Dal Quor at all, but with the proper magic a mortal dreamer could be redirected into the slumbering Overlord's dream instead of going to Dal Quor.

So it might be possible that an Overlord’s dreams might exert a more powerful draw on dreams above its prison? For instance, could sleepers in Thaliost slip into the dreams of Rak Thulkesh rather than into Dal Quor? That could be interesting, and potentially a way to calm his influence and finally give some rest to that hate-filled region. How would the Quori react, though, if an area the size of a city is suddenly cut off from them? And would a rajah be able to control his dreams, or be prey to them just like less powerful mortals are… I wonder whether a campaign can be made out of this.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Madfox11:

On a related note, the quori install a rather stale rigid 'peaceful' society in Riedra, one with apparent little variation and no real hero worship (after all, that would get youngsters to want to become heroes). Wouldn't such a society really clash with what eladrin would want to see? Granted, even Riedrans still have stories. So a fey of winter would not care less since even a tame society still fears winter, but a fey about trickery, courage or freedom? Also, the towers seem to exclude planar travel and I assume that just as the Fey Spires should not be stuck in Khorvaire, being stuck in Thelanis is just as bad - old stories go rather stale don't they?

(Mind you, I always liked the idea of fey lacking the ability to make true stories of their own without the aid of mortals. It is what makes them both dislike (jealousy) and admire mortals and goes a long way to explain their often mixed approach to mortals. It would also make them a bit symbiotic with mortals. The more stories are told by the mortals, the more power the fey representing those stories become. I am unsure whether that holds true in Eberron per se. It is not as if we have information on Thelanis during the Age of Demons and how much Dal Quor and Thelanis are influenced by Eberron )

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Syltorian:

Good point. Also, the Riedrans have the Edgewalkers, who react violently to anything extraplanar - including the fey. I would assume that the Inspired consider them 'evil spirits' to the same degree as the Kalashtar.

I wonder what the Riedrans do about stories: in the worst case, they could be squashed. Live in the here and now. Don't dwell on fantasies. They lead you astray. Don't use metaphors and allegories, even. Things are what they are. Don't go around telling people fanciful stuff about roses smelling just as sweet by any other name: a rose is a rose, and calling it something else is following the voice of the evil spirits. 

It would make Riedran society even more terrifying if the Quori have managed to destroy the human urge to interpret the world around them with stories, but I can see this happening. The Quori interpret the world for you, and there is no escape in dreams or tales. As soon as you say "once upon a time" in Riedra, the thought-police will make sure there is no "happily ever after". In fact, no "after".

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

Outsiders and Elementals don’t sleep by 3.5, if I recall correctly, but regular fey? Cadrel’s story would suggest that they do: the Eladrin dreamt before shunning Dal Quor out of shame, else they would not be able to tell the difference.

Cadrel's story is along the same lines as "How The Leopard Got Its Spots" - just because the story exists shouldn't be taken as evidence that there was once a time when leopards didn't have spots.

With that said, by the 3.5 SRD creatures with the Fey subtype may sleep, so I'd take it on a case by case basis.

Of course, I'll point out that simply because a creature sleeps doesn't necessarily mean that it goes to Dal Quor when it does. Kalashtar sleep but don't go to Dal Quor when they do; their nocturnal visions are drawn from the memories of their line and quori spirit. Many planar creatures might have similar mechanics; they sleep, and they have visions when they do, but they have no connection to Dal Quor and their visions are entirely internal experiences, or tied to some other racial pool.

Looking specifically to aberrations, I think there's a strong case to be made that a mortal native of Xoriat simply drifts back to Xoriat when it sleeps, its mind filled with the madness of its birth. 

Doesn’t this actually make the specific lycanthropic threat which led to the Purge much more terrifying? Lycanthropes were around long before the 830s: if people were used to afflicted lycanthropes not spreading the curse, they would be all the more horrified if this rule suddenly stopped to be true. This would help hammer home the point that the horrors committed by the Purified were not mindless genocide, but the panic-reaction of well-meaning people who knew the odds were against them.

Certainly, and that's the explanation we gave following the 3.5 change. My point is that prior to that change, it wasn't even a necessary explanation. Original 3E lycanthropy is terrifying. It utterly and completely transforms the victim's personality; an evil lycanthrope isn't simply "evil" in the nebulous sense we use elsewhere in Eberron, but is specifically called out as becoming a murderer who preys on the innocent, including former friends and family. Afflicted lycanthropes could pass the affliction, which allows for zombie-outbreak style exponential growth. Under those rules, the question isn't why the Purge occurred; it's why it wouldn't have happened sooner. As is, we're simply saying that at the time of the Purge, lycanthropy DID operate under 3E rules, most likely due to the influence of an Overlord; as such, it's always possible it could happen again.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Syltorian:

Thanks again, Hellcow. I will also have to read more of Kipling now; some of his stories seem to be interesting for Thelanis, beyond being worth the read on their own account.

Was there an answer planned to why the Purge didn't happen much earlier, if lycanthropy had remained with the 3.0 rules?

I like the Overlord story (and his prakhuthu, the Feral Hand), and the idea that the outbreak of lycanthropy before the Purge was something exceptional (which might happen again), but I'd be interested to hear what the original plan was.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

Was there an answer planned to why the Purge didn't happen much earlier, if lycanthropy had remained with the 3.0 rules?

First, the lycanthropic population was largely concentrated in desolate, distant areas like the Towering Woods, far from major centers of civilization.

Second, because the lycanthropic population largely took steps to prevent it from being an issue. You're a werewolf. You enjoy preying on innocents. You live near a village. How does turning everyone in that village into a werewolf actually HELP you? It takes away your prey pool and creates more competition for what prey exists; and furthermore, you don't have to have an 18 Intelligence to realize that a wildfire of infection is going to draw unwanted attention. All you have to do to prevent the spread is to make sure that you kill any victim you attack. By and large, such deaths are likely to be blamed on animal attacks, thus keeping your presence a secret.

Whether or not the Purge made lycanthropy easier to spread, it certainly filled the lycanthropic population with an unnatural desire to spread it, overriding more rational desires for self-preservation. Essentially, it turned it into a 28 Days Later scenario, when previously it was more akin to most of the older werewolf movies - where the bite of a werewolf can transfer the curse, but where few victims survive attacks and werewolves are all but unknown.

Personally, I have always seen wererats as the most likely to engage in a controlled program of infection in order to spread influence through an area, tied to the fact that wererats are also urban creatures; werewolves are more driven by loyalty to their existing pack than by a desire to increase that pack, and werebears tend to be loners. This is reflected in The Complete Guide To Wererats, which I wrote for Goodman Games pre-Eberron.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Syltorian:

Thanks again for the reply.

I'll see if I can get hold of the Complete Guide to Wererats. Will it be difficult to adapt it to Eberron? I know you discussed adapting your work on Oneiromancy to the setting in one of your Q&As, and Crime and Punishment seems to have influenced parts of Eberron (Medani, Tharashk, and, in particular, Dreadhold  spring to mind).