Theocracy vs. Magocracy: who would win?

[Al]

Planar Ally is matched by Planar Binding.

As for the wizards not having mass formations, it is likely that they would have fewer casualties for doing so. Clerics do not get effective mass destruction spells until 9th level (flamestrike) (Sound Burst, with d8 damage and close range hardly counts.) Wizards get it at 5th level, and even 1st levels can be a menace en masse (the old 100 magic missiles vs. the general trick).

I concede the point on mobility- but this is an argument for the magocracy. Whose likely to have the hard-hitting mobile troops? The teleporting high-level wizards. An interesting variation on a theme is for to teleport into bustling town centres and decimating clerical civilian population. Not particularly pleasant, but it grinds a town down and they may well surrender rather than continue getting slaughtered: the next day a sorceror with Cosmopolitan (Diplomacy) turns up and informs them that if they do not surrender they will continue to be terrorised: clerics with the Travel domain, what few there are, have alignment prohibitions against such acts. Alternately, attack the clerical economy. Teleport into granaries and burn the food stocks: there is no way that the clerics have enough 5th-level+ priests around to use Create Food and Water on a whole country.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

One thing to the Cosmopolition Feat: This feat is only (?) available in the Forgotten Realms Setting. If you want to use it, you might also have to use the rules from Living City / Living Greyhawk.
(And, if you use the Forgotten Realm Setting options, than you should also think of the "chosen of" people - Even if it is not the FR Setting itself, you might allow such characters. And it seems very likely that the first persons to be "chosen" by gods are Clerics and Paladins. )

And the Cosmopolition Feat is still a special feat. It will cost the sorcerer some other options, and not every sorcerer would take this feat. And a sorcerer does not have feats or skill points in mass!

Things like Feat, Skill and Spell Selection are highly background specific - if the sorcerer was expected to do the negotiater, if a war was expected in the last few years, than such people will be more "common". (If I see the wizards of the coast artwork about sorcerers, and other materials related to them, it seems as if sorcerer`s charisma is not typically used for friendly negotiations, but more for intimidation. But this will also be depending on the alignment of the sorcerer himself and the alignment of the society.)

Oh, and for the Hit-and-run tactics: I find it very interesting that "uncivilised" barbarians used these tactics, but high evolved cultures did not. So, maybe that is no proof that intelligent wizards will use these tactics.
Remember that, even when many cultures were very intelligent and "evolved", they still made mistakes or oversaw things that all are very obvious to us.
Unfortunately, I don`t know enoght about the background in all these wars and tacticts.
But it seems to me, that hit and run tactics were at least without mass destruction weapons only useful for raiding (Barbarian tribe invading a town, stealing everything useful, and than disappear before the military troops can arrive), or for some kind of defensive action (like in vietnam from the vietcong), that targets the "morale" of the agressors.

On the other hand... Hmm. I don`t know if I should post it... No, I decide against it. Though I am sure that the bad guys today alredy thought of it in their weird minds...

One thing I just thought about: If you don`t know anything about your target, you can`t teleport there, even with teleport without error. If the clerics would protect there most valuable places (where the "high command" sits) (against visitors and scrying), teleportation tactics won`t work so well. They will have to teleport outside the main target, and this might be deadly, if some high ranking paladins or black guards (or both! Lawful Neutral theocracy would allow both, and if the blackguard would be lawful evil, he will have to obey his orders, even if they come from a paladin, and vice versa) secure the area.
(Just imagine: A Paladin wielding his Holy +2 Longsword, and a Blackguard his Unholy +2 Longsword. Hopefully, the target is neutral.)

On the other hand, I don`t know may ideas how an attack against the wizard will fare.
If the clerics would start a surprise attack, they would probably attack one or two hours after the average wizard starts his day. All wizard have their spells already prepared, and they won`t be in "combat" mode
Hmm. But I doubt that the troups will be fast enough (espect for the Monks ) to be near enough to important places.

A further question is, what`s the place of druids? They are divine spell casters, so they are more likely to be on the theocracy`s (they might also be their own "country") site.
A wild shaped druid might enter the enemy regions without beeing identified and could strike surprisingly fast...

 

[Victim]

Theocracy wins in a prolonged struggle.

Raise Dead on the important people works amazingly well. Higher level spells make odd sucide attacks by Clerics with the Travel domain, or a spiffy magic item looted from a dead wizard, very dangerous. A cleric pops in with teleport, blows some stuff up and/or beats the crap of a wizard and then either dies or holy words out. Then the high priest casts true res. Obviously, the target has to high value for this trick to be effective, but it's still as good as anything a wizard can do, and probably better if the cleric has Trickery as well.

I don't think wizards will be teleporting to important cleric controled areas either. The clerics won't need walls around their cities, Permanent (Miracle) Forbidance effects in major areas, probably extended to cover the entire city could be in use. Sure, it's expensive, but so is the cost of building and maintaining a big wall that anyone can port through or fly over.

Clerics also have better mobility when traveling in unknown areas. Teleport requires study of the area. Scrying may not be effective since countermeasures can be employed. Also, Forbidence blocks teleportation. However, Windwalk can take along about as many people as teleport, and heavy equipment isn't a concern. It works relatively quickly - 60 mph flying. If the wizards are doing multiple "seen once" teleports for quick strikes, and a fewer number of clerics are doing windwalk for quick attacks, I think thigns will come out pretty even, especially since wind walk can also provide a return trip.

Clerics have knowledge Arcana as a class skill, and so will likely be aware of the magical tricks that wizards can do.

I can't see an entire nation of clerics being caught unprepared. Clerical Divinations, besides scrying, are better than wizard ones. When not dungeon crawling, I've seen a cleric keep a Divination ready every day. Since we're assuming a pretty large number of classed characters, generally in the preferred class of the region, it's not unreasonable that just about any important matter would have some people keeping tabs on it Divination, with COmmune used in emergencies. Even Augury would rule for setting up favorable situations. THe relatively reliable and low risk info from these spells blows the doors off crap like contact other plane.

Clerics have earlier access to sending spells, and thus better long range communications.

If the wizards are using extensive Enchantments to keep the pop in line, all the clerics need to do is attack not with painful spells but with dispel magic, or magic circle.

Finally, I pick the theocracy because a cleric is generally a bit better than a mage. A prepped mage beats an unprepped cleric. A prepped cleric beats an unprepped mage (personal experience). A prepped cleric is at least even, and probably superior to an prepped mage. I just about rendered a 10th level immune to the attacks of 13th level wizard, and probably could have done enough damage solo if the DM hadn't kind of cheated.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So, no further opinions?
Or, in other words: *bump*

 

[uv23]

So, no further opinions?
Or, in other words: *bump*

I think this is definitely the thread I'm most proud of starting. There have been some great (and long) ideas set down here.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yes, that`s true.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

Re: The wizards win a marginal victory.

IN ALL historical scenarios where an organised regular formation has encountered a skirmish group, the regular formation has the incredible advantage. The wizards win.

I beg to differ. Have you ever heard of the American Revolution? The British were in "regular formation," the insurgents were skirmishers. You know the results.

Furthermore, odds are that the theocracy forces would know about area-effect spells. Therefore, precautions would be taken.

Here's an analysis I think is fair. Imagine if this were a simple EverQuest-style duke-out. Since this is simply a "model," let's scale it down a bit. Imagine each side has 30 combatants (it could be smaller, but this would eliminate the diversity-factor). The theocracy has 10 priests, 10 paladins, and 10 fighters. The magocracy has 15 fighters and 15 wizards.

Obviously, the magocracy would have the advantage on offense, but the defensive advantage goes to the priests. In my experience, the defense usually wins, especially if you are playing with a "last-man-standing" objective.

Personally, I would rather fight on the side of the healers. Their survival ratio is higher, even if they do take more damage. Hell, even if you DIE you can be brought back. For the magocracy, once they suffer damage, it's there for good.

And finally, once ALL the spells run out, who is still capable of effective killing? The wizards would wilt like so many dead flowers.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

One more thing I thought of. If the Mage leaders are sending in strike teams to annihilate civilians (probably the best tactic mentioned), then folks, here's some news: they are evil.

And if they are evil, then *Holy weapons* will hurt them. Badly. Look in the DMG at the holy discriptor. All that is necessary to make one is 7th level. 7th! Assuming the civilian populace is being nuked like that, I'm sure a major tax hike would not be opposed to.

In which case the theocracy would have enough money to create massive amounts of +1, holy weapons with which to arm their fighters and paladins. So now your average phalanx (or skirmish group, or what-have-you) leader, and perhaps his higher ranking underlings, are doing 1d8+2d6+1 damage per strike, minimum. That would kinda hurt, if you're evil.

 

[Avatar of the North]

magocracy would win in epic level because of all the spells you can Persistant on themself. Fine attack me, your eating 5 elemental shields for around 400+ damage. I might have died but SO ARE YOU. Guess what i had MANY clones

 

[Victim]

And Persistent Spell really sucks for clerics, so they can't make effective use of it. Wait, persistent spell rules for clerics. Never mind then.

Also, assuming you still the ability to get super high level spell slots, clerics can get Miracle at will. Wish at will kind of runs out power when you can no longer spend XP.

The wizards' troops need to be an skirmish formation as well. A Soundburst on a dense formation about to rip through the clerics' skirmish formation might kill a few guys and would leave them vulnerable to their enemies' attacks.