Theocracy vs. Magocracy: who would win?

[Tarin Greenflame]

A wizard high enough to cast soul bind can cast teleport...and thus has a good chance of being on site, if the hero takes awhile to die. Word would spread very quickly from the destruction caused, and if the response time wasn't fast enough the first time, it would likely be the second time. Also, a high level mage would likely have on hand gems that are good enough to trap a soul that is capable of causing him a great deal of trouble. Or, the wizard could haste/invis up, teleport to him, and imprison him. And if you want to cast forbiddance across large portions of major cities, you had better hope everyone is of the exact same alignment, or else you will have LOTS of dead citizens (pretty funny mental picture imo)

As I said, dismissal/banish would migitate planar allies, not remove them as a viable strategy...however mages can summon creatures FROM their home plane, and thus dismissal/banishment would be null against them. That was my point.

And, unless elven, most clerics would be using simple weapons, not swords. Unless the armies don't use standardized, mass produced weapons by troop type, and instead for some odd reason mix up their weaponry, or all use simple weaponry, then clerics would be able to be spotted. And, in war, people of varying ranks are marked as such, to be easily identified by their troops, but on the other hand, are easily identified by their enemies.

Finally, in a pitched battle, usually the only cover is held by the defenders, and partially by the attackers, through use of seige constructs, or, if two armies are meeting, there is rarely any cover, and if there is, it is away from the main fighting area. Guerilla tactics require dispersed cover, such as trees, to aid the skirmishers and slow down the ranked units. As a side note, paladins make for very effective calvary chargers and would be very likely to be placed as such, and are very unlikely to be placed as archers (such a unit would likely be one of the theocracies' most devestating units on the field). Clerics, unless elven, would be highly unlikely to fight long ranged as well. Even if the theocracy had employed many bowmen, they would need to be in a ranked formation and not a line, unless they had few enough archers to not need ranks.

 

[Victim]

Yes, the wizard can teleport, but how does he know where to port too? Casters that powerful are probably going to be in much more secure areas. The fastest communication spells take 20 minutes to cast. About the only thing faster would be another skilled wizard teleporting from the scene. And then he still has to track your exact location down and pass through security checks to reach the archmage. See how quickly you can go from the outside entrance of a building to a specific, important person's office. However, I agree that the gem isn't likely to be a serious issue. That's why I called it a "minor" problem.

There's a marginal difference between heavy maces and long swords. If equiping the rank and file with slightly less effective weapons gives the low level clerics a good miss chance, it's probably worth it.

 

[Tarin Greenflame]

Definetly agree with you, in that the theoracy would probably all use maces instead of swords or a mix of the two, but leaders of regiments would still be likely to be marked, as well as the clerics, since medical troops are marked just as accordingly as lieutenants, sargeants, captains and such as marked in order to be identified. It may take a battle or two to discern between troops, but once that is done, important people will be singled out...

And, like I said, the hero suicide thing may work once, but is highly unlikely to work twice. Everyone will know something is up, when one person (or even a small party) is fighting like an army on their own, or decimating "more troops than a barrage of meteor swarms". When under attack by a small band of people that are somehow staying alive and massacring troops and alarms are going off. Word can spread quickly, in a variety of ways, so the threat can be pinned down and dealt with. It may take awhile for a message to reach a military leader's office under normal circumstances, but not when his compound is under attack and there is an urgent message to be delivered concerning the attack. Or, the alarm goes off and the archmage casts clarivoyance or similar to see what the problem is, or a lower mage in the sanctum does so and tells the archmage.

It's like saying mailing someone a message is the same as a broadcasting an alert message, to think that an attack message would take so long that by the time the leader knows, it's already over, and has been. If such is the case, then the attack probably isn't that effective, unless a cleric or mage is doing a nuking run. There may even be measures to not kill, but maim or disable small, elite groups, and brainwash them via enchantment spells, or cast imprisonment on, since the soul bind may not always work. I personally would opt for the capture and brainwash method

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Definetly agree with you, in that the theoracy would probably all use maces instead of swords or a mix of the two, but leaders of regiments would still be likely to be marked, as well as the clerics, since medical troops are marked just as accordingly as lieutenants, sargeants, captains and such as marked in order to be identified. It may take a battle or two to discern between troops, but once that is done, important people will be singled out...

Hmm. If you assume that guerilla tactics are used, why do you expect that the important people will mark themselve this way?
If you are allowed to attack medics, better not mark them, because it will be obvious for the opponents that these will be clerics...

For classes: I think fighters and rogues will be seen equally on both sides. They are the typical mercaniaries, I think.

An interesting thing to consider: As far as I see it, wizards do have some suspections to the "natural born casters" like bards and sorcerers.

But a Paladin will have no problem with a high ranking cleric, if they share the same dieties or smilar aligned dieties. Problem might be if the theocracy is to diverse...

For unusal allies:
Dragons will prefer the arcane site, probably, but they will want some reward - power, wealth, virgins. Probably more than a planar ally might want.

On the other hand - barbarian tribes might be convinced to believe in the gods of the theocracy. (Remember, that at least in the classical 1st edition D&D, Barbarians didn`t like mages, so they will have some more reasons to stand on the theocracys side)
Clerics and Druids will probably share some gods, so the druids will be more likely on the side of the theocracy (especially when their forests are being meteorswarmed and fireballed by the mages), and than a great mass of animals will accompany the troups. (Awesome)

Another interesting thing are the NPC Classes - Adepts are divine spell casters, aren`t they? Where are they to be placed?

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Al]

This thread has really exploded since a couple of days ago...there was I thinking that it was dead. Still, most people here are theocrats, so I better reiterate the case for the magi.

Re: Skirmishers:
1. Skirmishing works mainly for long-range troops with plenty of cover. It does not work with melee units.
2. Most troops will be melee units. Compare the prices of melee weapons with a longbow. And of course clerics and paladins will prefer the 'honour' of melee weapons.
3. Skirmishing only works against a more powerful foe: you cannot (and should not) use skirmish tactics against an equal army (tens of thousands hiding in the trees doesn't figure).
4. Skirmishing doesn't work if the enemies want to capture your cities.

Re: Teleport Trap:
1. Wizards have no effective defence? Dimensional Lock (T&B) + Permanency.
2. With regard to Forbiddance, why not get mage A to teleport just outside, disjoin the Forbiddance and teleport out again (Contingency, Hasted, can perform before clerics can even react). Mage B teleports in to main base, time stop and boom.
3. Clerics can be tracked with Scrying or Discern Location (better), so finding them isn't too much of a problem.

Re: Holy Weapons.
1. How much does a holy weapon cost to create? Minimum 9000gp? Now how many mercenaries can you hire for that. One lieutenant with a nice weapon isn't going to take on a whole company, evil or no.
2. This tactic can't be replicated much, the cost is prohibitive.

Re: True Res.
1. It's expensive. 5000gp is not to be thrown away: that's a whole mercenary company for a campaign.
2. Summon Monster VII (I think): Summon Barghest. Barghests eats soul. True Res now only has 50/50 chance of working. And if that's not bad enough, think what the bardic propaganda will be ('THEOCRACY SENDS TOP MEN IN WITH 50/50 SURVIVAL RATE').

Re: Sound Burst.
1. Range=Close. Are the clerics really going to waddle up to within charge range of a horde of troops?
2. Damage=d8. Compare and contrast with fireball.

 

[ThenHeCame]

I still stand behind my theroy that Orcus takes the feild in the end.

 

[Tarin Greenflame]

Sigh...
The clerics and paladins are the ones that would be most likely to be ranked in the first place, and the least likely to skirm or use guerilla tactics, especially paladins.

People are marked on the field because, as I have said more than once now, they must be easily identified on the field by their fellow troops, for sending/recieving orders, amongst other things. It seems I need to explain more, so...The grunts must know who the leaders are, to know who to listen to, as the lower officers need to with the higher-ups, and they also need to know what division everyone is in, whether it be medical, artillery, or infantry. Finally everyone must be marked in some way or another in order to tell who is a friend or foe. That is how it has always been done, in order to keep organization on the otherwise chaotic battlefield. Unless the theocracy will want disorganized troops, then they will mark their troops just like most every other organized army has in history. The clerics and paladins would be unlikely to use trickery anyway, unless they didn't have paladins, or paladins that were fooled into not knowing their homeland uses dishonorable tactics.

And if the mages really wanted to blend in, what stops cheap robes being bought for some or all the magocracy's troops to wear over their armor, or mages casting invis, change self/alter self upon themselves, or polymorphing into mundane animals in order to travel unnoticed, like the person that mentioned the druid wild shaping to infiltrate?

 

[reiella]

Some Notes, LPA is lower level than the Arcane Dismissal yes.

But it is also higher level than Arcane Magic Circle against -Alignment-, which wizards can get, which can work fairly well to entrap a planar ally to be fairly ineffective (does need to beat SR when appropiate however).

There is a fair point about majority of combat most likly going to be ranged, although I don't think it would really be conventional ranged weapons (Protection from Arrows, and how it behaves when paired with permanecy at least), but more so focusing on the somewhat destructive capabilities of both forces. Using Miracle to teleport a suicide hero would be interesting, but then again, it boils down to my original point, whichever side manages to cast Miracle or Wish first.

Course one spell also stops True Res cold...a spell castable by a 9th level wizard too. Animate Dead.