D&D 4E Thing I thought 4e did better: Monsters

And when you're using a score of bugbears against your players, you really don't want complicated monsters.

Wel I think this exposes one of the design difrences between the editions.
in 5th edition increasing the number of enemies is a way to make encounters harder and is easye to do becouse you might have a bigger number of creatures theye are simple to run.
in 4th the number of enemies diden't increase as much but each enemy became more complex and harder to kill ( more Hp)
 

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Cyvris

First Post
The only thing better is that 4e uses monster level instead of challenge rating.


This was a major benefit. I honestly hate DMing in 5e because of how annoyingly fiddly "CR" is. 4e's intense focus on balance meant I could toss five level four monsters at the level four party and it would work. 5e is a weird mix of math comparisons that really slows things down.
 
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Wel I think this exposes one of the design difrences between the editions.
in 5th edition increasing the number of enemies is a way to make encounters harder and is easye to do becouse you might have a bigger number of creatures theye are simple to run.
in 4th the number of enemies diden't increase as much but each enemy became more complex and harder to kill ( more Hp)
Kinda.
In 4e there was a steady progress of bonuses, so monsters needed variants to be used at higher level. But they could have been the same monster with increased bonuses, hp, and defences. Each higher level variant didn't need new attacks or powers. There are 93 variants of orcs in 4e, ranging in level from 1 to 27

We didn't need an orc freak, and orc scout, orc raider, orc harrier, and orc reaver all with completely different attacks. There could have just been a level 1 orc raider, a level 2 orc raider, etc.

Inversely, you don't want the capstone fight to be a series of repeating auto-attacks, either.
True. But capstone fights tend to be unique. They're not something you pull right out of the book. They shouldn't be a textbook encounter.

They're also not the baseline. Generic orcs shouldn't be designed to serve as bosses or unique NPCs.

The thing is that it's always less work to dumb something down than it is to increase its difficulty/options. Even in 4th edition if you wanted the most basic use of a monster you could just have it make basic attacks.
True. My design philosophy does tend to be "it's easier to take away than to add".
But, two thoughts.

One, that's still a decision. It adds a decision point to running the monsters: do I use X or Y. Do I keep all its powers or play it simple. And it adds a trap into the game. New DMs might not realise they can drop powers.

Two, the range of levels where most humanoids are fought singularly is exceedingly small. You start off fighting goblins and kobolds in mobs. After after level 3 or 4 you'll likely be fighting mobs of hobgoblins, orcs, and gnolls. You'd be designing more potent humanoids for a single level.

My party is only 5th level, but in my last session, they raided a gnoll warband to free the slaves kept there. I used pretty much every gnoll statblock I had access to (flind, witherling, hunter, havoc runner, fang of Yeenoghu, etc). Over a dozen gnolls.
I'm super happy for most I could just spam their basic attack. Because when running a dozen monsters, as a DM I need to be quick. And, to the players, it didn't matter and the fight was still threatening because there was a lot of constant danger.

Additionally, even many of the tougher/more singular monsters are relegated to either slapping spellcasting ability on it ('cause that never gets old, right?), or having it be a passive ability such as a medusa/basilisk stone gaze or the rakshasa's cursed claws. The number of creatures with a genuinely unique active abilities is annoyingly small. Even other kinds of passive abilities, like auras, are strangely absent.
Tougher solo monsters get spellcasting because that's what they got in previous editions. 5e is a game inspired by the past, so monsters are designed to work as they they did in the past, to use their classic design. They're meant to be iconic in that respect. So by that design, there's seldom going to be more spellcastery monsters than non-spellcastery monsters.
Funky new powers weren't added to them just because they could.
(If you want monsters with more active powers try new monsters. Such as Kobold Press' Tome of Beasts.)

Passive vs active...
It's neat to have active triggering powers for the DM. However, those tend to do less damage in order to balance between the funky secondary effects. However, this makes the powers less scary to players. Because the best status effect to place on a creature is "dead". And from the perspective of the adventuring day, unless the ability weakens the character for several combats, it's not going to last long enough to be memorable. Hit point damage will weaken the character in future fights, creating tension.
I've run a few bosses that can buff as an action. But I've seldom used it because the boss only really gets one or two actions, and using one for a buff to allies - half of which will be dead before they get to use it - seems like a waste. It's an option not worth using.
Plus, as the DM, you're narrating the battle, adjudicating the player's actions, running 1-6 monsters, and tracking other events. You have a lot on your plate without adding decision points and active powers to monsters to also pick between and track. As the DM, your number one job is keep the combat moving: even though you're doing twice as much as any other player at the table, your turns *need* to be faster.
Oh, and there is also DM fiat. Players can do whatever you want to let them attempt with their heroes. As a DM it's even easier, as you don't even need to ask. If you want a monster to do something cool... let it do something cool. The player's won't know it wasn't in the statblock. As long as you're being fair and entertaining it's fine.


One of the things the 4e modules did well is have unique room elements to fights. It wasn't just an empty room, but there was blocking and difficult terrain and certain powers were more effective. Or you had to do something else, like closing a portal, disarming traps, or performing a skill challenge. That's what makes interesting fights.
Rule one of storytelling is "show don't tell". But rule one of DM storytelling is "involve don't show". And funky monster powers are the definition of showing, since it's something another creature is doing. To players, interesting monsters are inherently less interesting than interesting room elements because anything they interact with is inherently more engaging, because it's involving them and their actions/choices.
 

This was a major benefit. I honestly hate DMing in 5e because of how annoyingly fiddly "CR" is. 4e's intense focus on balance meant I could toss five level four monsters at the level four party and it would work. 5e is a weird mix of math comparisons that really slows things down.
I much prefer CR. Because "level" gets used far, far too much in D&D: dungeon levels, spell levels, class levels, etc.
The difference is really party vs character. In 3e and 5e, a CR (or level) 1 creature is a reasonable challenge for a level 1 party. But some monsters are better in groups even at level 1 and it would be weird to have a "level 1/4" monster. Making CR 1/8 into level 1 just means level 1 parties are able to fight level 4 or 5 creatures, which is also odd. Since player level and monster level are such different scales, it makes sense to give them different names.

4e had experienced based encounter budgets too. Just like 5e. You figured out the level of the party and added their experience budget before deducting the xp values of the monsters to build an encounter. That was just as much math. Pretty much...
The difference is people quickly realised that the budget could be filled by one monster of the appropriate level per PC. So that was how encounters were designed. Five monsters, maybe swaping one out for an elite, and one out for four minions.
But this got tricky if the monsters you wanted to use were the wrong level. Really, it was typically easier to just adjust monsters to the right level than mix-and-match monsters to "spend" the experience budget like the rules suggested. (I never used monsters at the level they were in the book, because the party was never at the exact right level to fight monsters when the story dictated they should.)

Now, a dirty secret about 5e: you can do the exact same thing as you did in 4e. A monster with a CR 1/3rd the level of the PC is pretty much the right challenge for a one-on-one fight. So a party of five 3rd level adventures can face five CR 1 monsters. At 4th level you have a couple CR 2s and a couple CR 1s, but at 6th level, all the monsters become CR 2. Just eyeball it and you're good.

And there were oddities in 4e. The rules were not perfect, and you could make silly encounters while following the encounter building guidelines. IIRC, a level +5 elite was the same hp and experience as a level+0 solo. So that was the same "challenge". Except the elite would be much, much harder to hit, and would hit much more often. Ditto a level+5 standard monster in place of an elite. And having too many minions that were spread out could rip apart a party.
 

(Disclaimer: not a 4e player)

I don't think the strength of 4e's monsters came from the stat block so much - it's not that hard to make an orc into an orc reaver. The hard part for many DMs is conceiving of the orc reaver in the first place - what makes this gnoll with a glaive special compared to these gnolls with morning stars? The weapon stats in the book don't tell you.

You don't need to provide DMs with examples of variant monsters for the game to work - but it helps them a lot.
 

Cyvris

First Post
Now, a dirty secret about 5e: you can do the exact same thing as you did in 4e. A monster with a CR 1/3rd the level of the PC is pretty much the right challenge for a one-on-one fight. So a party of five 3rd level adventures can face five CR 1 monsters. At 4th level you have a couple CR 2s and a couple CR 1s, but at 6th level, all the monsters become CR 2. Just eyeball it and you're good.


4e just felt much "clearer" about it for some reason. Monster level=player level for the most part, so tossing a group of equal levels at each other worked. 1/3 CR rating=1 PC just feels off for some reason. Maybe it's just how I DM but the entire party fighting one single monster is very boring.

I'd almost be tempted to go through and "re-level" all the Monster Manual creatures to make that a little bit more clear.
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
While I think 5e on the whole is a lot better than 4e, it is somewhat lacking in the monster department. There are three main things I think 4e did better with monsters:
Gotta say, monsters are one of the big reasons I've stuck with 4e. The variety of levels and abilities, clear levels vs. fuzzy CR-math, simple encounter guidelines, clear creation-by-level guidelines vs. wonky tack-a-CR-on-afterward guidelines, and the minion/standard/elite/solo roles...this stuff is gold, plain and simple. I know why 5e went all retro, but as a DM I have no interest in going back to 5e's quasi-classic increased-workload style.
 

Dualazi

First Post
[MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION]

Most of your points I more or less agree with (and yes, I own the excellent tome of beasts), much as I acknowledge the spellcasting prevalence as a nod to earlier editions. Don't get too caught up in the humanoid thing, they're by far the best candidate for scaling templates as it is, and I don't much mind if most of the in-book examples are the generics. A stronger counterpoint in my opinion, and what I was getting at, was powerful creatures that could be powerful singular challenges, such as ettins/giants/rocs etc. that have few-to-no options aside from generic attacks. I'm not saying that every single monster should have a super move, but that the scales seem off, and it increases my workload as a DM as a result.

As an aside, I don't think the powers need to be weak. A mindflayer's mind blast, Fomorian's Evil Eye, and a read dragon's breath run the gamut from CC to simply huge damage and i think they're pretty much fine at each stage.
 

Staffan

Legend
Kinda.
In 4e there was a steady progress of bonuses, so monsters needed variants to be used at higher level. But they could have been the same monster with increased bonuses, hp, and defences. Each higher level variant didn't need new attacks or powers. There are 93 variants of orcs in 4e, ranging in level from 1 to 27

We didn't need an orc freak, and orc scout, orc raider, orc harrier, and orc reaver all with completely different attacks. There could have just been a level 1 orc raider, a level 2 orc raider, etc.

4e used monster variants in two ways: variety and power differential. For humanoids, it was mostly variety - the ones that were significantly higher level than baseline tended to be minions for use in encounters together with monsters that were higher level "for real". For example, orcs had a baseline level of 3-4. But orcs are often found in the company of ogres - and in those cases, you'd mix the level 8 ogres with level 9 minion Orc Warriors instead of with level 4 Orc Berserkers.

But the main use of variants for humanoids was variety: if the party got attacked by orcs, you'd have a mix of raiders (mixed melee/short range), berserkers (melee dudes), and drudges (minions), possibly with an Eye of Gruumsh overseeing things.
 

Jensen

First Post
Oh, and there is also DM fiat. Players can do whatever you want to let them attempt with their heroes. As a DM it's even easier, as you don't even need to ask. If you want a monster to do something cool... let it do something cool. The player's won't know it wasn't in the statblock. As long as you're being fair and entertaining it's fine.

That.

And give monsters feats (especially bosses/solos). They don't really alter the math as much as put a wrinkle in what a monster can do. A feat will make the monster a bit more dangerous, sure, but nothing that suddenly unbalances the encounter. And familiar feats are easy to keep track of. I use:
Alert
Charger
Grappler
Martial Adept (or give a Fighter Maneuver like Disarming Strike, Pushing/Sweeping/Trip Attack)
Mobile
Sentinel (either the first two features or the third)
Skulker
Tavern Brawler

I'd also echo an idea that was posted earlier: the environment and ecology of the setting can make all the different. You don't have to give special abilities, but that goblin blacksmith can fling molten ingots; ogres can bull-rush characters over ledges, etc.
 

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