D&D 5E This is a directory of posters who think the sorcerer needs fixing

[Hawk Diesel]

[MENTION=6670153]gyor[/MENTION] For me, the point is not that you can't execute a theme for a sorcerer. The problem is that compared to other spell casters, the spells known is arbitrarily reduced. In previous additions it made sense due to the flexibility of spontaneous casting versus how wizards needed to prepare their spells. But in 5e, that comparison falls flat since all casters are essentially spontaneous casters. The sorcerer archetype abilities are roughly on par with the wizard archetype abilities, and sorcery points are roughly equivalent to Arcane Recovery. So are we saying that metamagic and being able to consume spell slots is equal to 10 spells known, the additional 19+ spells a wizard can have in their spell book PLUS the wizard's Spell Mastery ability?

 

[ScuroNotte]

So you still think the sorceror needs more spells known?

Because they've already nixed that idea, beyond maybe cure wounds for the Favoured Soul.

Yes, very observant of you.
However, their lack of action or your opinion will neither silence our voice nor cease our attempts in creating a sorcerer that we envision. We hope their current lack of attention to correcting the Sorcerer is due to their attention of correcting the Ranger class (which still requires a non-spell caster versio).
Until then, myself and others will continue our present course, petitioning our concerns, and creating and playing homebrew versions in order to play a better and enjoyable Sorcerer. (Which most forget d&d is a game that is played for fun.)

 

[gyor]

Yes, very observant of you.
However, their lack of action or your opinion will neither silence our voice nor cease our attempts in creating a sorcerer that we envision. We hope their current lack of attention to correcting the Sorcerer is due to their attention of correcting the Ranger class (which still requires a non-spell caster versio).
Until then, myself and others will continue our present course, petitioning our concerns, and creating and playing homebrew versions in order to play a better and enjoyable Sorcerer. (Which most forget d&d is a game that is played for fun.)

I'm Not trying to silence anyones options, I'm merely trying to provide another perpective.

 

[gyor]

[MENTION=6670153]gyor[/MENTION] For me, the point is not that you can't execute a theme for a sorcerer. The problem is that compared to other spell casters, the spells known is arbitrarily reduced. In previous additions it made sense due to the flexibility of spontaneous casting versus how wizards needed to prepare their spells. But in 5e, that comparison falls flat since all casters are essentially spontaneous casters. The sorcerer archetype abilities are roughly on par with the wizard archetype abilities, and sorcery points are roughly equivalent to Arcane Recovery. So are we saying that metamagic and being able to consume spell slots is equal to 10 spells known, the additional 19+ spells a wizard can have in their spell book PLUS the wizard's Spell Mastery ability?

Honestly yes. Most of those extra spells the Wizard can have are things in practice he will rarely use, especially if they can't be cast as rituals.

A tiny example would be a twinned Firebolt which costs 1 sorcery point, but which deals more damage at high levels then most first level spells.

A Sorceror with Warcaster can possibly cast an empowered quickened metorite swarm, then empowered twinned fire bolt,
and then nail them with another empowered firebolt as reaction. That is something the wizard can't do. That is something that should not be underestimated.

Nor should the Font of Magic be down played, its really powerful.

And more spells can be added with feats.

How many spells do you need?

 

[ScuroNotte]

I'm Not trying to silence anyones options, I'm merely trying to provide another perpective.

I thought you were trying to end the discussion by your comments ..

So you still think the sorceror needs more spells known?

Because they've already nixed that idea, beyond maybe cure wounds for the Favoured Soul.

and ...

Challenge accepted.

If that isn't enough for you, you can take ritual caster, elemental adapt, and Magic Inniate feats.

If that isn't verstile enough for you, then Sorceror isn't the class for you, go play a wizard.

.

If I misunderstood, that was my error.
Your perspective is accepting the class as written by your comments. Our opinion through play and enjoyment (lack of) is that the class needs a revision.

 

[ScuroNotte]

...

And more spells can be added with feats.

How many spells do you need?

The spells by acquired by the following...

If that isn't enough for you, you can take ritual caster, elemental adapt, and Magic Inniate feats.
.

Ritual feat - only rituals. Requires using a feat. The increase in spells should be freely available.

Elemental adept - gain no spells, just improve damage from certain spell types

Magic initiate - 2 cantrips and 1 spell.


1st - Sorcerer gains the least amount of spells of all full casters. Even the Warlock gains 19 spells plus up to potentially 8 invocations that will mimic spells, either free cast or once per long rest. And if you are going to mention the small number of spell slots, remember they regain slots after every short rest (except levels 6-9)

2nd - Sorcerers have a slight edge in number known compared to 3rd casters, who use spells as a complement to their class abilities. Sorcerers completely rely on spells.

3rd - As stated previously many times, it is frustrating and not enjoyable.

The number of spells known between commentators are 20 to 22. The number varies depending on whether there is a preference on
a) bonus spells based on archetype or
b) a flat increase in spells.

My group and I prefer a flat increase to 22 spells known.

 

[CapnZapp]

A truly great sorcerer class would have extensive support for various elemental-themed builds. Ideally replacing the metamagic monopoly.

This could be achieved by spells (where under-served elements get more spells than, say, fire) but likely supplemented by element-specific "metamagic". I don't know, acid lasting longer or electricity getting secondary target(s). Also mixed elements like snow (water plus cold). See mephit proliferation.

One major unique draw would be a final mechanical answer to why a Winter Witch (say) would mostly cast "winter" spells in a landscape full of cold-resistant foes.

Then most of the current metamagic options - that have a quite cerebral feel - could be repackaged for general use (mainly Wizard and Psion).

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[ScuroNotte]

A truly great sorcerer class would have extensive support for various elemental-themed builds. Ideally replacing the metamagic monopoly.

This could be achieved by spells (where under-served elements get more spells than, say, fire) but likely supplemented by element-specific "metamagic". I don't know, acid lasting longer or electricity getting secondary target(s). Also mixed elements like snow (water plus cold). See mephit proliferation.

One major unique draw would be a final mechanical answer to why a Winter Witch (say) would mostly cast "winter" spells in a landscape full of cold-resistant foes.

Then most of the current metamagic options - that have a quite cerebral feel - could be repackaged for general use (mainly Wizard and Psion). ��

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

I disagree about Sorcerers having features solely focused on their archetype/elemental type. A sorcerer is more than a "1 trick pony". He/she is a spell caster that can channel magic from within. Your vision will further confine the class, not expand its potential. Imagine stating based on your Wizard school, you only can know spells from that school. Or creatures have advantage on saves on spells cast by you from a different school of magic

Removing Metamagic will leave the class without anything but it's archetype, further confining the Sorcerer to its archetype. It's not a monopoly, but class feature. Another class may have the same or simply liar feature but gained at a later level or more limited. Based on your rationale of monopolizing abilities, which make classes unique, lets make all abilities available to every class. A fighter having rage. Ranger getting sneak attack. Etc.

If you want a Wizard with Metamagic, you can homebrew one and use it as an archetype. At each level of archetype feature, it gains 1 metamagic. And gains 1/2 amount of SP compared to sorcerer

 

[Gradine]

Metamagic is basically the only thing that counteracts the Sorcerer having fewer spells known; I think the idea was (or at least should have been) that Metamagic functionally allows the Sorcerer to turn their limited number of spells known into a much broader range. The problem is that none of the metamagic options we have actually does this. Metamagic should feel like using it allows you to cast a different spell, in a way that no other caster could accomplish. Energy Substitution should have been an included for a start. I'd also include something that lets you caster spells with a range of Self to a range of Touch.

They should also have access to the Wizard's entire spell list, but that's another issue entirely.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Once of my players had a Sorcerer PC when we I ran Curse of Strahd. He made it to level 9. So that's my experience with Sorcerers.

I tried a couple things. Giving out more MM and lowering their cost turned out to be "too good", IMO. However what I would continue to do for Sorcerer players would be (1) let them recover SP during a short rest, and (2) each Sorcerer bloodline should provide thematic spells like Cleric domain spells.

Also, MOAR BLOODLINES. There really should be a bloodline for each monster type or source of magic.

Also, I don't know how to add my name to the first post.