D&D 5E This is a directory of posters who think the sorcerer needs fixing

[Irda Ranger]

I think the Sorcerer's main problem though is he just feels like a Wizard that doesn't know as many spells. Warlocks and Bards are very different kinds of casters; Sorcerer, not so much.

 

[CapnZapp]

I disagree about Sorcerers having features solely focused on their archetype/elemental type. A sorcerer is more than a "1 trick pony". He/she is a spell caster that can channel magic from within. Your vision will further confine the class, not expand its potential. Imagine stating based on your Wizard school, you only can know spells from that school. Or creatures have advantage on saves on spells cast by you from a different school of magic

Removing Metamagic will leave the class without anything but it's archetype, further confining the Sorcerer to its archetype. It's not a monopoly, but class feature. Another class may have the same or simply liar feature but gained at a later level or more limited. Based on your rationale of monopolizing abilities, which make classes unique, lets make all abilities available to every class. A fighter having rage. Ranger getting sneak attack. Etc.

If you want a Wizard with Metamagic, you can homebrew one and use it as an archetype. At each level of archetype feature, it gains 1 metamagic. And gains 1/2 amount of SP compared to sorcerer

No I'm not saying we should be stripping the class of everything but it's essentials.

But I am saying metamagic was the wrong choice for something that makes the class unique.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[gyor]

Actually the Sorceror spell casting has far more in common with the Bard then the Wizard, the closest casters to Wizard, would be Druid and Cleric, even if the Arcane Trickster and Elderich Knight use a modified Wizards spell list.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

[MENTION=6670153]gyor[/MENTION] For me, the point is not that you can't execute a theme for a sorcerer. The problem is that compared to other spell casters, the spells known is arbitrarily reduced. In previous additions it made sense due to the flexibility of spontaneous casting versus how wizards needed to prepare their spells. But in 5e, that comparison falls flat since all casters are essentially spontaneous casters. The sorcerer archetype abilities are roughly on par with the wizard archetype abilities, and sorcery points are roughly equivalent to Arcane Recovery. So are we saying that metamagic and being able to consume spell slots is equal to 10 spells known, the additional 19+ spells a wizard can have in their spell book PLUS the wizard's Spell Mastery ability?

It's even worse than that. Wizards also get ritual casting, which can effectively increase their "known" spells on any particular day, often by a lot. And their spell list is a lot bigger than the sorcerers, and includes things the sorcerer probably should have.

My opinion is as follows:

1) I used to wonder if Champion was good enough compared to other fighter archetypes. I examined it fairly thoroughly and decided it is. Sure, it's a bit weaker, but it's within my tolerable range. I can make Champions that I am satisfied with and feel fine playing alongside other fighters.
2) My initial thoughts on Sorcerer was that they weren't good enough. I did a lot of examination and convinced myself I was wrong, and they were within tolerable range. Then I tried to make a perfectly reasonable concept (black dragon sorcerer), and found that I couldn't make one I was satisfied with. I've examined it more and decided that it is definitely not within my tolerable range.

In my opinion they need three things: more spells known, a larger selection of spells to choose from, and more "oomph", probably through messing with the metamagic or sorcery point mechanics. They don't need a lot of any of these things, but they would really benefit from a little of all of them.

 

[cbwjm]

Add in more spells and I think you would see less problems with the sorcerer. That black dragon sorcerer should be able to learn melf's acid arrow. Just because it's named I see no reason not to allow them access to it, especially when they allow sorcerer's to use melf's minute meteors. Ideally, on release they should have ensured that each different type of dragon sorcerer had access to 4-5 different spells of their element since homebrewed spells aren't allowed in every situation.

 

[MoonSong]

Once of my players had a Sorcerer PC when we I ran Curse of Strahd. He made it to level 9. So that's my experience with Sorcerers.

I tried a couple things. Giving out more MM and lowering their cost turned out to be "too good", IMO. However what I would continue to do for Sorcerer players would be (1) let them recover SP during a short rest, and (2) each Sorcerer bloodline should provide thematic spells like Cleric domain spells.

Also, MOAR BLOODLINES. There really should be a bloodline for each monster type or source of magic.

Also, I don't know how to add my name to the first post.

Click edit post -anybody can edit the first post of a Wiki thread-. Write your name with a @ before it. Just did it BTW

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I know, yet another sorcerer thread right? Well not exactly. I was thinking of making a thread where all enworlders who think the sorcerer could use a little fixing here and there could congregate, network, share play experiences, homebrews and coping strategies, review third party archetypes and spells or just talk about what do we like about the class, what are opportunity areas we find, and what things from previous editions we would like to see next.


Gradine's treatise on the sorcerer
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So I don't care for the sorcerer, but then I've never liked them as written. And I completely disagree with one of Gradine's major points as well for the same reason.

I can't stand that they use wizard spells at all.

To me, a sorcerer is somebody who shapes raw magic (just like they say, right?). So I think that they should do just that, but it also means that the main difference between a sorcerer and a wizard is that a wizard can handle more complex magic. The written spell itself, the verbal and material components (sorcerers in my campaign only use somatic), allow them to shape magic to do things that a sorcerer just can't do.

Wizards are more restricted in their options because they rely on their learned spells. That is, if they know fireball and are battling a creature immune to fire, they can't really do anything about it. But a sorcerer just shapes the magic into cold energy, or lightning, force, or thunder.

Sorcerers are also better at non-spellcasting things, because they haven't spent the countless hours studying spellbooks, etc. So I prefer a sorcerer class that has a lot more flexibility in shaping the raw energy, but is restricted in much of their other magic. I'm also not terribly concerned about class balance, since they are designed to work within my game world, and it's rare that any character reaches 10th level in my campaigns much less beyond.

 

[cbwjm]

So I don't care for the sorcerer, but then I've never liked them as written. And I completely disagree with one of Gradine's major points as well for the same reason.

I can't stand that they use wizard spells at all.

To me, a sorcerer is somebody who shapes raw magic (just like they say, right?). So I think that they should do just that, but it also means that the main difference between a sorcerer and a wizard is that a wizard can handle more complex magic. The written spell itself, the verbal and material components (sorcerers in my campaign only use somatic), allow them to shape magic to do things that a sorcerer just can't do.

Wizards are more restricted in their options because they rely on their learned spells. That is, if they know fireball and are battling a creature immune to fire, they can't really do anything about it. But a sorcerer just shapes the magic into cold energy, or lightning, force, or thunder.

Sorcerers are also better at non-spellcasting things, because they haven't spent the countless hours studying spellbooks, etc. So I prefer a sorcerer class that has a lot more flexibility in shaping the raw energy, but is restricted in much of their other magic. I'm also not terribly concerned about class balance, since they are designed to work within my game world, and it's rare that any character reaches 10th level in my campaigns much less beyond.

This is one of the things I like about the mystic, their disciplines (especially the Wu Jen elemental powers) make me think that his is what a sorcerer should be like, or at least similar to. A sorcerer having access to a realm if sorcery and then able to use various powers within that realm would make for a more interesting sorcerer in my opinion.

You could even go further and more complex and allow a sorcerer to shape spells directly from a list of parameters (range, area of effect, damage, duration, etc) with the power of the spell drawing spellpoints based on the power of the spell. You'd probably want the sorcerer player to record the spells they create for later for ease of play while still allowing them to pull out a crazy spell stunt from time to time.

 

[MoonSong]

So I don't care for the sorcerer, but then I've never liked them as written. And I completely disagree with one of Gradine's major points as well for the same reason.

I can't stand that they use wizard spells at all.

To me, a sorcerer is somebody who shapes raw magic (just like they say, right?). So I think that they should do just that, but it also means that the main difference between a sorcerer and a wizard is that a wizard can handle more complex magic. The written spell itself, the verbal and material components (sorcerers in my campaign only use somatic), allow them to shape magic to do things that a sorcerer just can't do.

Wizards are more restricted in their options because they rely on their learned spells. That is, if they know fireball and are battling a creature immune to fire, they can't really do anything about it. But a sorcerer just shapes the magic into cold energy, or lightning, force, or thunder.

Sorcerers are also better at non-spellcasting things, because they haven't spent the countless hours studying spellbooks, etc. So I prefer a sorcerer class that has a lot more flexibility in shaping the raw energy, but is restricted in much of their other magic. I'm also not terribly concerned about class balance, since they are designed to work within my game world, and it's rare that any character reaches 10th level in my campaigns much less beyond.

Can you tell any example of shaping raw energy that isn't actually straight up destruction? Because from my perspective it is a petty double standard that wizards are the only ones that can actually create and produce long term effects on the world.

 

[cbwjm]

Can you tell any example of shaping raw energy that isn't actually straight up destruction? Because from my perspective it is a petty double standard that wizards are the only ones that can actually create and produce long term effects on the world.

Although not the one quoted, what comes immediately to my mind is the Dragonlance sorcerer in the saga system (3e didn't really model them that well). Each sorcerer (and mystic) had access to a certain types of magic some had destructive magic like fire or lightning but others had spectramancy which allowed them to create illusions others had the ability to summon, transmute, or perform divinations in addition to the full suite of elements.