D&D 5E This is a directory of posters who think the sorcerer needs fixing

[Gradine]

Mystic disciplines

Should there not be room in the system for both a Mystic and a Sorcerer? Some of us would like a bit of a crowbar separation, thank you.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Should there not be room in the system for both a Mystic and a Sorcerer? Some of us would like a bit of a crowbar separation, thank you.

I think there's room for both in the system, its just that for the moment WotC gave us a mystic who acts more like what they're selling the sorcerer as. Maybe if the mystic was something completly different, a class based on skill and explorations. But no, the mystic has the ability to morph his body with claws, wings and iron-like skin. He has the ''chromatic'' cantrip the Chaos Sorcerer wish he had. He's able to cast without components or movement, like the sorcerer should be able since his powers ALSO comes from the inside. He can become a conduit of pure elemental energy, his body can absord the mystical energy flux when he cast etc

I mean, I'd feel more like a red-dragon sorcerer with a Mystic with Giant Growth, Bestial Form, Fire Mastery, Mantle of Fear and Mantle of Awe than the dragon sorcerer, and that bugs me.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

The problem is the limited spell list; Sorcerers are cut off from accessing the spells they would need to complete their theme, for really no good reason. The fix? Open up their spell list some. Or a lot.

An easy way to do this as a quick patch to the class (without messing with subclasses) might just be to allow all sorcerers to choose another spell list to have full access to at 1st level. (The Favored Soul, if it keeps cleric access, would get that in addition to this standard feature.) It might be best to limit the options to wizard, druid, bard, and warlock (or not, just a thought).

That might be a decent trade for knowing so few spells. I mean, if you are going to be so restricted in spells known, you better be able to get exactly the spell you want.

I have a hard time seeing how this would overpower the class, and it would make it significantly more appealing.

 

[Schmoe]

Yeah, I was thinking about talking niche but my posts were running long. If you think it terms of 4e roles (which are no longer codified but I think no less important), Warlock fills the "striker" niche, while Wizard fills the "controller" niche (and in general is better suited to utility). The problem is that this doesn't leave much niche left for the Sorcerer. I think there are two key points that need to be a part of the niche Sorcerer describes, and how to fix it:

* Theme. With their limited spells known, Sorcs better than any other spell-caster can fill the role of the thematic caster. D&D has always been such that versatility will always trump expertise, at least in terms of optimization, but there's a broad fantasy trope to fill here and Sorcerers are best suited to fit it. The problem is the limited spell list; Sorcerers are cut off from accessing the spells they would need to complete their theme, for really no good reason. The fix? Open up their spell list some. Or a lot. Give all Sorcs access to the Wizard list, for a start. From there, maybe archetypes? A fey bloodline could be the Favored Soul but for Druid spells. Infernal bloodline might hand out a few Warlock exclusives. A drop of siren's blood for Bard spells. If we aren't bringing Metamagic to every caster class, let's bring every caster to the Metamagic class.

* Adaptability. This is the big one, the one that's related to metamagic, and it's the main reason I think that Sorcerers fall short mechanically. The extra spell slot across the board helps fix this somewhat by freeing up more Sorcery Points for Metamagic. And this is really the key feature of the class; it's their Smites, their Rage, their Sneak Attack. I don't necessarily know that it needs to be stronger (I haven't gotten to see much use out of it myself in actual play), but it needs more options, and the Sorcerer needs to be able to learn more of them, and more quickly. Sorcs should start with Sorcery Points and two metamagic options at first level. The point of the Sorcerer, their true niche in 5e, I feel, is that they can do a lot with a little because of how adaptable they are.

Some ideas for new Metamagic Options:

<snip>

Great ideas, and I agree that more meta-magic options could definitely help. One of the biggest mistakes of the sorceror is that they need to use Spellpoints to recover some spell slots, whereas a Wizard just needs a short rest. So despite the fact that the Sorceror has access to fewer known spells chosen from a more limited list, they need to use all of their flexibility just to compete with a Wizard for spells cast per day. I might start by giving the Sorceror one extra spell slot per spell level per day. This still gives them flexibility to recover spell slots if they really need to, but there would be less pressure to use their Spellpoints to do so. Adding more Spellpoints and more meta-magics known would then help fill in the ability to do cool things.

And of course, the bloodlines are cool, but there need to be more bloodline options to choose from to widen the appeal of the class. A "generic" bloodline not tied to any particular creature type or crazy Wild Magic mechanics would go a long way to improve this.

 

[Guest 6801328]

But no, the mystic has the ability to morph his body with claws, wings and iron-like skin. He has the ''chromatic'' cantrip the Chaos Sorcerer wish he had. He's able to cast without components or movement, like the sorcerer should be able since his powers ALSO comes from the inside. He can become a conduit of pure elemental energy, his body can absord the mystical energy flux when he cast etc

I mean, I'd feel more like a red-dragon sorcerer with a Mystic with Giant Growth, Bestial Form, Fire Mastery, Mantle of Fear and Mantle of Awe than the dragon sorcerer, and that bugs me.

I popped in, skeptical, to see why the sorcerer needs to be "fixed". But I have to say I do fine the idea of merging mystic and sorcerer. I do not like the UA Mystic AT ALL. It just feels like a utility closet of cool but unrelated features, rolled into an a la carte class. But, yeah, take some of those "innate" abilities that have nothing to do with psionics and build them into the sorcerer. I'd like to see that.

Edition 5.5, please.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I used to be alone like a mad Cassandra way back during the open playtest when I predicted that Neo-Vancian would mean balance problems for sorcerers, but over time I've noticed there is more and more posters who think the class could use a little help and recently that number has exploded.

The playtest Sorcerer was so different, it mightn't've been a problem if they'd built on that rather than going with just the metamagic angle.

Metamagic always struck me as a better fit for the Sorcerer than it was made to be in 3e.

A few thoughts on the Sorcerer, probably already been said, but:

• Neo-Vancian is just too much and it hurts the sorcerer, in particular: So, roll the prepped casters back to paleo-Vancian, by simply having them prep into slots, rather than having a separate prepped list. That'll reduce their flexibility considerably, bringing them down a peg or two, and letting the Sorcerer ( & Bard & Warlock) shine a bit by comparison.
• Similarly, as in 3e, maybe just give the Sorcerer more slots/day than the prepped casters.
• Give sorcerer sub-classes (and choices w/in a sub-class, like the different dragon/elemental types) different spell lists, more in keeping with their themes. Including one fixed bonus associated spell known for each spell level.
• Linked directly to that, more sub-classes, including...
• A a catch-all custom sub-class, more of a DM/player guideline, really. Pick spells known from any list to fit the supernatural heritage you outline (w/DM approval, of course), but get fewer/more-generic sub-class perks.
• A 'simple caster' Elemental Sub-class, like the Essentials HotEC one, that doesn't learn spells at all, just blazes away with an element of choice, both at-will with an element-appropriate cantrip, with slots & metamagic just pumping it up.

 

[Stalker0]

I think the sorceror is pretty close, my biggest issue is their spell selection. There are a few wizard spells (the ritual spells) which I can understand is not on their list. There may be a few spells that would be too abusive with metamagic. But the vast majority of wizard spells are just fine for sorcs. Like Bestow Curse for example, a solid sorcy type spell. Why can't sorcs take it!

Here are my general house rules:
1) Wild Sorc: Took out the kill the party fireball. Everything else was fine.
2) Spells: Wizard spell list, minus the ritual spells.
3) Doesn't need a spell focus or magical components (they are magic damn it!)
4) They can ignore 10 gp of material components for 1 sorc point. Can burn an exhaustion level for 5 points for this purpose.

 

[ScuroNotte]

I strongly agree that the Sorcerer class needs modifications.

1. More spells known. I find it frustrating that a 3rd caster has 13 spells known while their spells are a compliment to all its abilities. A primary caster relies solely on spells.
I would recommend 22 spells known, as the Bard. To have the numbers known tied to a stat forces a player to use all his/her ability score improvements to make certain to gain this benefit.

2. Arcane Recovery. I would allow once per short rest to regain used spell slots. By using spell slots, you prevent a player from abusing by using sorcery points to create above the permissible number of spell slots and then regain more sorcery points. Sorcery Points are depleted to quickly as they are required for Metamagic, regaining spell slots, and some archetype features. I picture a Monk who can only regain Ki after a long rest. He/she wont be very effective.

3. Gave some spells from the Wizard spell list. Allows the Sorcerer to gain more utility spells as well as spell sthat use concentration as a bonus action so he/she doesn't burn through sorcery points. IE Bigby's Fist

4. Gain more metamagic spells. Spread them out through the levels or allow a selection of 2 metamagics at each level of attainment.

5. Create bonus spells as the warlock. The player can choose to select them or not.

6. My preference is to allow the Sorcerer to be proficient in light armor and weapons. Even in the PHB, it states that the Sorcerer is someone who adventures to learn to use their powers. They are not a wizard who stays at home. A character who is prone to adventuring and taking risks should be able to use better equipment. In my opinion, I find it more likely that a Sorcerer rather than a Warlock can use armor and weapons. I picture a Warlock as someone who is weak or lacks abilities and seeks to make a pact to gain power. I envision Raistlin - made pact for power but in return gained (actually penalized) harmful affects.

7. No need for Arcane focus.

 

[KarinsDad]

My fix is to double the number of Sorcerer spells known per level. Problem solved IMO.

With this fix:

1st level Wizard (typically) = 4 spells prepped plus rituals
1st level Cleric (typically) = 6 spells prepped/known
1st level Sorcerer = 4 spells known

10th level Wizard (typically) = 15 spells prepped plus rituals
10th level Cleric (typically) = 25 spells prepped/known
10th level Sorcerer = 22 spells known

20th level Wizard (typically) = 25 spells prepped plus rituals
20th level Cleric (typically) = 35 spells prepped/known
20th level Sorcerer = 30 spells known


The main trade off between a Wizard and a Sorcerer then becomes the Wizard can adapt his spells on a daily basis and cast rituals without prep and has some cool subclass features, whereas the Sorcerer can metamagic (Sorcerer subclass features tend to be a bit meh).


With this option, Sorcerers become badass. :lol But still not as versatile as Wizards who can adapt on a daily basis.


For someone who thinks that this is too many known spells for a Sorcerer, add level/2 round up instead of doubling (3, 16, 25 at the levels listed above).

 

[eayres33]

I’ve always thought the Sorcerer played fine as written, if you want to be a Dragon Sorcerer who had a fire bloodline, or if the DM lets you roll on the wild magic surge table. Like the Beastmaster Ranger I’ve thought the critiques were overblown.

However that doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be easy relatively small fixes. To follow is a random throwing of words on a page.

My favorite that I’ve read here and that best fits the theme is no need for Arcane focus, and I’d go one step further with no V or S components. You’re a frickin Sorcerer that fire bolt should just shoot from your hand. So of course included in this is you can’t be counter spelled. In fact I'm going to make that a hard houserule in all games I start to DM in the future.

The Dragon Sorcerer should also get to pick from a wider ray of poison, acid, cold and other damage spells to fully flesh out a non-red dragon theme.

An arcane recovery that doesn’t require the use of Sorcery points also would go a long way towards evening the playing field with wizards.

Also there needs to be more bloodlines, and somehow there should be a Gish Sorcerer, who can use light armor and some martial weapons.

As for spells, I liked the first storm sorcerer with domain like spells as an easy way to add 8 or 10 spells known to the class.