CreamCloud0
One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
ooh, megadungeon thread, i'll keep an eye on this.
D&D General Thoughts on running Rappan Athuk (and deadly megadungeons in general) [SPOILERS]
Longtime fan of Necromancer/Frog God Games (and Rappan Athuk) here. I spent a lot of time on their boards (probably before I came over here). They published my first adventure, which I submitted through a fan open-submission call on their board. Talking to Bill Webb (who was editing my book) over the phone is how I first learned how to pronounce the dungeon's name correctly.
I had the first three softcover volumes for 3.0, got the 3.5 Rappan Athuk Reloaded (RARE), but never actually tried to run it until I got the 5e volume.
I'm lucky that my wife loves RPGs (and for other reasons I won't get into here lol). If she could, she would play almost daily. She will try different systems, play solo adventures, listen to all the news I blabber about, watch 2 hour streams about the state of the industry with me, etc.
And she loves dungeons - nasty traps, dangerous monster fights, etc. During COVID I ran her and her brother through a good chunk of Barrowmaze, which I converted entirely onto Roll20. (Every original monster was statted, tokens created, the massive dungeon lined up on the grid and set up with fog of war.)
We got through about 1/3rd of Barrowmaze before we had to stop due to life getting kinda hectic, but we had a blast with it. I did gold for XP, and the party was doing great about levelling up and seeming "badass" (which is my wife's main goal in playing RPGs.)
With Rappan Athuk, I ran it solo for her. Of course we could play it in person. She had a few characters (probably a fighter and rogue) and I played two casters (a healbot cleric and a blaster) as NPCs.
She had a great time. It wasn't tied to a real world, and retreating to "town" for supplies and healing was handled off screen. It was a little more like playing a Dungeoncrawling Board Game like Descent more than a typical RPG session. We got to the illusory ambush by Scramge the Raksasha before we hit a TPK. That ended the game. She'd probably go back to it, but we're honestly playing enough games with other groups (in person and online) that we don't have time for solo adventures.
I had the first three softcover volumes for 3.0, got the 3.5 Rappan Athuk Reloaded (RARE), but never actually tried to run it until I got the 5e volume.
I'm lucky that my wife loves RPGs (and for other reasons I won't get into here lol). If she could, she would play almost daily. She will try different systems, play solo adventures, listen to all the news I blabber about, watch 2 hour streams about the state of the industry with me, etc.
And she loves dungeons - nasty traps, dangerous monster fights, etc. During COVID I ran her and her brother through a good chunk of Barrowmaze, which I converted entirely onto Roll20. (Every original monster was statted, tokens created, the massive dungeon lined up on the grid and set up with fog of war.)
We got through about 1/3rd of Barrowmaze before we had to stop due to life getting kinda hectic, but we had a blast with it. I did gold for XP, and the party was doing great about levelling up and seeming "badass" (which is my wife's main goal in playing RPGs.)
With Rappan Athuk, I ran it solo for her. Of course we could play it in person. She had a few characters (probably a fighter and rogue) and I played two casters (a healbot cleric and a blaster) as NPCs.
She had a great time. It wasn't tied to a real world, and retreating to "town" for supplies and healing was handled off screen. It was a little more like playing a Dungeoncrawling Board Game like Descent more than a typical RPG session. We got to the illusory ambush by Scramge the Raksasha before we hit a TPK. That ended the game. She'd probably go back to it, but we're honestly playing enough games with other groups (in person and online) that we don't have time for solo adventures.
pogre
Legend
Congrats on making it through Rappan Athuk with your group!
I think you hit right on the head about setting the dungeon into a greater environment the PCs can interact with and escape to from time to time.
I have run several megadungeons and the best results happened when there were connections and goals mixed in locations and events above and below.
Currently I am running a very big dungeon, not quite mega, for a group of folks with Dungeon Crawl Classics. I figured the combinations of whacky rules and goofiness would make a pure dungeon delve doable. It was a mistake. I should have established a greater world setting around it and crafted more missions and motivations for the PCs. After three months we're almost done and I am looking forward to moving on to something else.
I think you hit right on the head about setting the dungeon into a greater environment the PCs can interact with and escape to from time to time.
I have run several megadungeons and the best results happened when there were connections and goals mixed in locations and events above and below.
Currently I am running a very big dungeon, not quite mega, for a group of folks with Dungeon Crawl Classics. I figured the combinations of whacky rules and goofiness would make a pure dungeon delve doable. It was a mistake. I should have established a greater world setting around it and crafted more missions and motivations for the PCs. After three months we're almost done and I am looking forward to moving on to something else.
jgsugden
Legend
My general thought on mega-dungeons: The story tends to be less of an emphasis, and that results in a campaign that gets repetitive and boring. The dungeon needs to be the location where a great story is told if you want a great game ... not just a place where a lot of combats take place.
My best megadungeon is a manor house on a large island. The PCs explore the ruined surrounding village, then the manor house. They discover connections to the Shadowfell, Feywild, Ethereal and pocket dimensions inside the place which allow for me to use four different maps of the island that have very different features. As they explore, the PCs discover the history of the island, a long dormant threat to the world that is arising, and dozens of shorter storylines that require them to solve puzzles, outsmart enemies that are more powerful than them, and eventually beat the giant big bad. There are twelve shorter storylines, three longer storylines, and one overarching storyline. The interdependence of the megadungeon's structure and the storylines is what makes this dungeon work really well for me. The PCs can approach the dungeon like a sandbox and visit areas in different orders - sometimes needing to find ways to avoid powerful enemies until they are strong enough to fight them. I've run it twice and am setting it up to run again in a year or two.
My best megadungeon is a manor house on a large island. The PCs explore the ruined surrounding village, then the manor house. They discover connections to the Shadowfell, Feywild, Ethereal and pocket dimensions inside the place which allow for me to use four different maps of the island that have very different features. As they explore, the PCs discover the history of the island, a long dormant threat to the world that is arising, and dozens of shorter storylines that require them to solve puzzles, outsmart enemies that are more powerful than them, and eventually beat the giant big bad. There are twelve shorter storylines, three longer storylines, and one overarching storyline. The interdependence of the megadungeon's structure and the storylines is what makes this dungeon work really well for me. The PCs can approach the dungeon like a sandbox and visit areas in different orders - sometimes needing to find ways to avoid powerful enemies until they are strong enough to fight them. I've run it twice and am setting it up to run again in a year or two.
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Ancalagon
Dusty Dragon
I am not very fond of megadungeons... but I think a big dungeon can be great. (the kilodungeon?)
We did about 2 levels of undermoutain back in the 2e days and... we grew bored of it. So we moved on to other adventures. In the 3e era we did the return to the temple of elemental evil and it was a HUGE slog and we just gave up following a semi-TPK (1/3 of the party dead, 1/3 captured, 1/3 evaded but no easy way to free the others so... screw it).
What I have found that did work was when a large dungeon had a solid sense of story but also was "completable" - ie didn't go on forever. I can personally recommend the Gates of Firestorm peak - it has 125 rooms but more importantly, there is variety (different "sectors" of the dungeon with different challenges/environment), it has "factions" (it's not kill everything all the time, diplomacy is possible) and the story is pretty solid. I've run it twice in 5e and would do it again.
I don't know RA and maybe it doesn't have the same flaws. Variety is important I think, and dungeons can be limited in that sense.
We did about 2 levels of undermoutain back in the 2e days and... we grew bored of it. So we moved on to other adventures. In the 3e era we did the return to the temple of elemental evil and it was a HUGE slog and we just gave up following a semi-TPK (1/3 of the party dead, 1/3 captured, 1/3 evaded but no easy way to free the others so... screw it).
What I have found that did work was when a large dungeon had a solid sense of story but also was "completable" - ie didn't go on forever. I can personally recommend the Gates of Firestorm peak - it has 125 rooms but more importantly, there is variety (different "sectors" of the dungeon with different challenges/environment), it has "factions" (it's not kill everything all the time, diplomacy is possible) and the story is pretty solid. I've run it twice in 5e and would do it again.
I don't know RA and maybe it doesn't have the same flaws. Variety is important I think, and dungeons can be limited in that sense.
Eyes of Nine
Everything's Fine
I love the idea of MegaDungeons (MD). I own Rappan Athuk as well as Arden Vul
From my perspective, a MD is a setting; not an "adventure". Adventures can happen in the MD, in fact multiple adventures can happen. The MD has multiple factions; and also has multiple safe-spaces for the party. And if the party never appeared in the MD, the factions would continue to act to their own interests
I am currently a player in an Arden Vul west marches campaign. He's running it in Freebooters on the Frontier, a Dungeon World fork that's trying to more closely emulate the feel of an AD&D/Old School type rules set but also to preserve the PbtA nature of Find out what Happens. The GM handwaves returning to town after every adventure, mostly due to the West Marches nature of the campaign. All avenues of entry are available to us, and as PCs we can encounter any monster - there is no concept of "encounter balance". After about 6 months worth of essentially weekly games (some weeks 2 sessions, some none) we have explored about 5% of Arden Vul
I'm loving it - but also because as players we have also started to build out some of the localtown of Gosterwick.
I do think a MD needs a local town within a half-days or less journey to provide respite. The town should be large enough provide most everything (including a place to sell unwanted magic items!); but not so large that itself becomes a hub of adventure. Like I wouldn't run a campaign with Arden Vul or Rappan Athuk next to Ptolus
A specific question on Rappan Athuk - I had a hard time figuring out all the interconnections between the levels. There is a map in the tome - but it wasn't great for my brain. To the OP - did you have any suggestions or tips on how to keep all the connections between the levels straight?
From my perspective, a MD is a setting; not an "adventure". Adventures can happen in the MD, in fact multiple adventures can happen. The MD has multiple factions; and also has multiple safe-spaces for the party. And if the party never appeared in the MD, the factions would continue to act to their own interests
I am currently a player in an Arden Vul west marches campaign. He's running it in Freebooters on the Frontier, a Dungeon World fork that's trying to more closely emulate the feel of an AD&D/Old School type rules set but also to preserve the PbtA nature of Find out what Happens. The GM handwaves returning to town after every adventure, mostly due to the West Marches nature of the campaign. All avenues of entry are available to us, and as PCs we can encounter any monster - there is no concept of "encounter balance". After about 6 months worth of essentially weekly games (some weeks 2 sessions, some none) we have explored about 5% of Arden Vul
I'm loving it - but also because as players we have also started to build out some of the localtown of Gosterwick.I do think a MD needs a local town within a half-days or less journey to provide respite. The town should be large enough provide most everything (including a place to sell unwanted magic items!); but not so large that itself becomes a hub of adventure. Like I wouldn't run a campaign with Arden Vul or Rappan Athuk next to Ptolus
A specific question on Rappan Athuk - I had a hard time figuring out all the interconnections between the levels. There is a map in the tome - but it wasn't great for my brain. To the OP - did you have any suggestions or tips on how to keep all the connections between the levels straight?
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Only suggestion I can give - though it might involve a little tedium - is to photocopy the maps (and number them, if not already done), highlight each level connection, and add a note in bright red saying where it leads to.
So (hypothetical example as I don't have RA in front of me) next to a set of down stairs on the number 3 map I'd write "To map 4, Area 16". If it's a staircase passing through the level I'd write "UP: to Map 2, Area 12. DOWN: to map 4, Area 16". Then on maps 2 and 4 there'd be corresponding notes at the other ends of those stairs each saying "To Map 3, Area 25".
This comes in real handy when there's connections that bypass levels, as all you care about is where it goes becvause that's the map you need to use next. So for example a shaft leading several decks down from that same room might have a note "To Map 6, Area 3".
Further, going through this process will help familiarize you with what levels connect with what.
MNblockhead
A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
That's awesome! A few years too late for me, and I have issues trying to run games on FG from my location, but if you are going to run RA, the cost of both FG and the RA content for it is WELL worth it given how much play time you'll get out of it and how much prep time it will save.Not that it helps you now, or solves bandwidth issues, but RA was released on FG earlier this month. Rappan Athuk for Fantasy Grounds
Looking forward to more of your posts on this. Never run or played RA, but am a megadungeon fan
$50 is well worth it. If they are including everything in the 5e version of the book, it is a massive amount of content.
MNblockhead
A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
This is a spoiler-friendly thread, so I'm not going to take the time to put my responses in spoiler tags. It would be too cumbersome to write or read. So, if you are concerned with spoilers, please be warned.
First, I don't think of RA as an adventure so much as a setting. It is comparable to massive city-setting books like Bard's Gate or Ptolus. There are plenty of plot threads, factions, and locations, but you can build many adventures in it. I've been running RA for over 4 years. That's not an adventure, its a campaign.
In terms of tone, there is a lot of variety. Yes, there are some purile encounters and locations, like the dung monster. Others might complain about parts of it being too edge-lord grim-dark. RA was a home setting created by Bill Web over many decades. Parts of it were created at different points in his life and things that happened in his home games made it into the setting's canonical lore. It shows. It isn't the most cohesive and consistent settings in terms of tone. But that is also part of its charm.
RA is really what you make of it. There is a lot of lore written into it (and a LOT more supporting lore if you dive into the other setting books and adventures in the Lost Lands), but you can completely ignore it. You can easily ignore/remove/change sections or encounters you don't like. It is such a huge megadungeon you are unlikely to play through it all even after years of play, you might as well focus on what you like.
For my part, I approach it like jazz. I run it as written, but I improvise and add onto what it is written. Throw away encounters or out-of-the-way and more obscure areas in some cases become important parts of the campaign's story, depending on what the characters decide to do and what I decide the repercussions of their actions are.
As for the Dung Monster itself. "Dungie" beloved encounter for many RA fans. It is one encounter that most who play the game will encounter given its location in one of the main entrances to the dungeon. Yes, there is a purile, slap-stick nature to it, but it doesn't have to be played that way. Actually, in my game it really only had a slapstick feel when reading it as the DM. In play, it is more of like a horror encounter. A naughty word golem, while ostensibly a slap-stick throwaway, can be run as a quite terrifying encounter. A good example in non-D&D fiction is
the sewer golem like monster in sewers of the castle in Another Kingdom, by Andrew Klavan
Rappan Athuk has diverse encounters and areas that can be whimsical, puerile, grime-dark, edge-lord, or scary. It has political intrigue, faction-based politics, hack and slash, body horror, creepy environments, deadly puzzles, otherworld explorations, magical weirdness, sci-fi encounters, demonic traps, and on and on. It is a kitchen sink setting that somehow works. But if something doesn't work for you, it is easy to remove or alter without wrecking the setting.
MNblockhead
A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
My sense is that in 5e it is not quite as deadly as the 3e, Pathfinder and Swords & Wizardry versions, but I've only run the 5e version. If you start them at 5th level, they should find the upper levels more survivable with the occasional deadly surprise to keep the dangerous flavor. But you don't even have to do that. In the current version they've added a lot to do before going to the dungeon proper. The Mouth of Doom is an entire dungeon in itself that is meant for lower level characters. There are also a lot of wilderness encounters for various levels. The Zelkors Ferry supplement also gives a number of low level quests. The party doesn't have to go directly to the sunken graveyard and try to get in through the mausoleum or go down the well.
