Tier list for PF classes, or summary of each?

TheAuldGrump

First Post
Tastes vary. I personally enjoy 4e gaming much more than 3.5 or Pathfinder. And character creation is much less work (epically equipment).
(But I prefer Mutants & Masterminds as a system even more.)
I prefer Pathfinder to M&M, but I like Spycraft just as much as Pathfinder. (More of a genre thing in the case of M&M - I think that the system is very elegant, but I don't play Supers much.)

In honesty though - if 4e floats your boat, why try to inflict an arguable tier system on Pathfinder? Those who disagree will never agree with you, and the ones who do will argue about which class goes where. (Unless the argument is the point - in which case you can enjoy the bustle. :p )

When I read someone's post that talks about the lack of balance, or looking to create a more powerful character, I'm afraid my thoughts run along the lines of 'He/She is/has a lousy GM.' I certainly would not want to play in their game.

The Auld Grump
 

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Wiseblood

Adventurer
Perhaps the OP should play a fighter. Not much in there to nerf.

I would add this warning though. You will get tired of saving the spellcasters. They talk a big game...but


Rarely have the right spell ready.

Sleep when they should be keeping watch.

Rub it in when you get charmed.

Are thankless when you are taking hits for them.

Are the first to whine when the party gets AoE'd

And are least likely to be targeted with an offensive spell.

Most likeley to target themselves with defensive spells.

They are most capable of all classes at fleeing the scene.

Will want to take a break after casting the one spell that might actually be useful again today.

Lets face it.. if they were half as bad as they think they are, SoD and AoE would be all anyone would ever memorize.
 

Walking Dad

First Post
...

In honesty though - if 4e floats your boat, why try to inflict an arguable tier system on Pathfinder? Those who disagree will never agree with you, and the ones who do will argue about which class goes where. (Unless the argument is the point - in which case you can enjoy the bustle. :p )

...
Some of my friends enjoy Pathfinder more than me and I enjoy playing with them.
I don't enjoy the bashing of other games and the undue over much praise for Pathfinder's game balance.
And the OP asked for a Tier list or summary.
 

MortonStromgal

First Post
why try to inflict an arguable tier system on Pathfinder?

I think the tier system can be a useful tool for players and GMs to know what to expect from classes and be prepared to say give the monk and extra feat if it feels like that player isnt contributing much. I think its mostly used for powergaming and assuming a GM will allow some shinanigans (part of the new say yes philosophy rather than the Gygax AD&D 1e, beat them down mentality) but it can be a useful tool. I also feel alot of players misunderstand that the tier system. It is less about damage and more about ability to take on multiple rolls with a particular class.
 

TheAuldGrump

First Post
I think the tier system can be a useful tool for players and GMs to know what to expect from classes and be prepared to say give the monk and extra feat if it feels like that player isnt contributing much. I think its mostly used for powergaming and assuming a GM will allow some shinanigans (part of the new say yes philosophy rather than the Gygax AD&D 1e, beat them down mentality) but it can be a useful tool. I also feel alot of players misunderstand that the tier system. It is less about damage and more about ability to take on multiple rolls with a particular class.
I think that it is the powergaming aspect that sticks in my craw.

Personally, I sure as heck would not want to run a wizard solo through most adventures, but would have less difficulty as a bard or a rogue - so the tier system seems off when it comes to the ability to 'take on multiple roles'.

No sir, don't like it. (And I am of the OD&D generation - but have always allowed shenanigans... players trying stupid silly crazy innovative and creative things is part of what makes GMing worthwhile. :angel:

The Auld Grump
 

MortonStromgal

First Post
The wizard starts out weaker sure, and less versatile than a rogue, but when you start casting 3rd level spells you start catching up and eventually when 3rd level spells are weak you pull ahead, not in terms of raw damage but in terms of "Today I will memorize spells to be a rogue, tomorrow I will memorize spells to be a fighter" But I will agree most people get stuck in "how powerful am I in combat" and incorrectly look to the 3.X tier system. Wizards are powerful but that Paladin hits like a Mac truck... and keeps going, don't even get me started on the Summoner...

I think a lot of the power gaming tier stuff comes from people who never played AD&D where your 1 HP fighter caught diptheria and died for crawling through a sewer.
 

enrious

Registered User
I think categorizing people who look at the numbers as being unfamiliar with gaming history to be dangerously short-sighted.

Sure, there are likely to be some who have only started playing with 3.x. But I would caution ascribing the majority of such players to that category.

It's as dangerous a position as saying that the people who think that looking at the numbers are johnny-come-lately people who got their start larping in the park and scaring all the neighbors with bad hair and the smell of cloves.

Both are equally inane.

Also, I hasten to add, are arguments that say that powergamers are the minority of the gaming populace or that larping interferes with math skills.

Empirical data showing your gaming statistics argument or it didn't happen.



In any event, there's a reason why tier discussions have combat as a major (if not *the*) component.

A large part of D&D is about combat.

And the combat discussions tend to revolve around the numbers, because the numbers are empirical.

Let me give you a demonstration.

Everyone, please rank the classes by tier, in terms of role-playing potential.

I rest my case.



Hey, let's face it - D&D has always had combat as a major (if not *the*) component to the game - one could argue that as time progressed role-playing become more prominent than in the beginning (which I think is a good thing).

You can define the tier system to be utility over combat capability - hey, that's your right and if you make it clear at the outset that it's your expectation, then I'm all for it. I think part of the problem is someone says "tier" and a lot of people think "combat tier" while others think "utility tier" and then they start arguing definitions instead of realizing they have two different arguments. Heck, throw in some more "x tier" discussions too (such as "self-sufficient tier") and IMO, you make for a more productive discussion.

Y'know, any class can thrive in any campaign. The factors that go into it are the same - rules, GM, player, luck.

The question is to what degree much one of those factors compensate for another.

I started out a long time ago and I rarely let the rules get in the way of the story (note: I didn't say *my* story) - but I'd be lying if I told you the rules never got in the way of that story and often an area of rules-weakness are the classes.

I noticed this the most with a recent Kingmaker campaign - the encounters are built according to the RAW and they expect characters to have certain combat requisites.

That's not a subjective opinion, that's part of the core of the rules set, and yes, combat numbers are something that are very important. (I again suggest people who are so bad at math that they have to role-play* drop $5 on a copy of the Trailblazer PDF to understand the fundamentals of the mechanics - and why it's important to know them.)

*It should also be noted that people who are good at math are out role-played by a pet rock, which is why they do the math.**

**Obviously failed attempts to insert levity.

Look, the main thing is that, IMO, you shouldn't ignore the basic math issues any more than you should ignore the role-playing - they are part and parcel for the game. At the end of the day, the most important thing is that you spend some time with people you enjoy spending time with, while doing something you enjoy. And the same for the other people.

tl;dr - The more tiers, the fewer tears.
 
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MortonStromgal

First Post
I think categorizing people who look at the numbers as being unfamiliar with gaming history to be dangerously short-sighted.

Thats not what I was saying at all. I was saying "those who give a bad name to the tier system" are usually people who started with 3e. That would be those who look at T1 as being the most powerful in combat, they aren't really groking the numbers at all because T1 is not about combat power. Even the wizard "god" builds are focus on summoning and controlling the battlefield not blasting with the most damage.

[edit] Its also not their fault, because 3.0 introduced choice into character creation more than where to put that attribute you just rolled. 2e had this as well but it wasnt built into the core it was in skills & power and other optional books. 3.0 also included many options that were not equal (toughness, dodge, etc) so picking them was bad/wrong depending on your build. In 1e all we had to worry about was 6 attributes and placing them in the best place for the class and sometimes some spells or skills). 3e added feats and more granularity to the bonus structure as a whole. All these options make someone who knows the rules and someone who doesn't on polar opposite ends of the combat power scale, thus making someone who played a "useless" character see his/her friend slay everything think about how to gain more combat power.

Everyone, please rank the classes by tier, in terms of role-playing potential.

Fine

T1 - Rogue, Fighter

T2 - Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer

T3 - Paladin, Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, Druid
 
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Systole

First Post
T1 - Rogue, Fighter

T2 - Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer

T3 - Paladin, Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, Druid


Barbarians are T3? Come on! All you gotta do is give 'em a BFAxe and a dirty loincloth, and you've got the life of the party!


In terms of role-playing potential:

T1: Bard, barbarian, rogue, sorcerer, oracle, inquisitor

T2: Fighter, rogue, alchemist, ranger, summoner, cavalier

T3: Cleric, wizard, witch, paladin, monk, druid
 

Epametheus

First Post
What classes will work and won't work will depend greatly on your group. Do people coordinate? Can they perform tactics? Are they willing to support each other?

If the answers to those are yes, then you can pretty much do anything and be fine. A lot of classes don't function well in a vacuum (rogue is a good example of this) but can be staggeringly effective if they're supported, or are doing the supporting (a rogue who actually gets buff spells is a good example of this).

If the answers to those are no, then (a) I'm glad I don't have your group and (b) you should probably be a caster that has a little bit of durability, because self-sufficiency will be everything. A sorcerer, witch, or wizard will eventually be strong, but you'll be leaning on the rest of the not-helpful party before that happens. Cleric, magus, druid, summoner, oracle, or one of the "selfish" bard archetypes, like arcane duelist or the dancing dervish, may be your best bets. I haven't seen alchemist or inquisitor in action, so I have nothing to say about those.
 

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