Titan Fighting

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Thanks for catching my cut-n-paste error, Infiniti.

 

[IcyCool]

Regardless, I think we all agree that the feat is specifically to allow you to convert your +1 Dodge into a +4 Dodge against non-Giants larger than you. Right? Against a Giant you specify, you get +5 Dodge.

Let me clarify.

Titan Fighting specifies that you get to add your racial dodge bonus against giants to your ac instead of your dodge bonus from the dodge feat, but only against a creature that is at least 1 size category larger than you.

That bears repeating:

The bonus from Titan Fighting replaces the bonus from the Dodge feat when fighting a creature at least one size category larger than you.

Now, let's say that you are fighting a Giant one size category larger than you. Can you show me where it says that the bonus from Titan Fighting replaces both the dodge bonus from the dodge feat and the racial dodge bonus against giants?

 

[Infiniti2000]

The difference of opinion is this. The titan fighting feat replaces the Dodge feat bonus not with a "bonus from Titan Fighting" but with, specifically, your racial bonus against Giants. If that racial bonus already applies, you do not get it again. Why? Because the Titan Fighting feat does not duplicate the bonus (i.e. it does not create a new bonus of a different or even the same name). It merely allows you to use it instead of the Dodge bonus.

So, I (and I think Patryn agrees) am not saying what you think I am saying. I can't show you want you want because it has nothing to do with my stance.

 

[IcyCool]

The difference of opinion is this. The titan fighting feat replaces the Dodge feat bonus not with a "bonus from Titan Fighting" but with, specifically, your racial bonus against Giants. If that racial bonus already applies, you do not get it again. Why? Because the Titan Fighting feat does not duplicate the bonus (i.e. it does not create a new bonus of a different or even the same name). It merely allows you to use it instead of the Dodge bonus.

So, I (and I think Patryn agrees) am not saying what you think I am saying. I can't show you want you want because it has nothing to do with my stance.

I think I see what you are saying, I guess I'm just confused why you feel you can't apply that bonus twice. I've gone over the text of the feat again, and I'm still missing it.

Titan Fighting allows you to apply your racial dodge bonus against giants to your AC against any creature one or more size categories larger than you regardless of creature type.

Your racial dodge bonus applies against Giants.

If you have Titan Fighting, and have assigned your dodge to a Giant at least one size category larger than you, why do you not get it twice?

 

[Coredump]

...

You go to fight a Hill giant....

Without the feat, against a hill giant:

10 + 8 (full plate) + 2 (heavy shield) + 1 (Dex mod) + 4 (racial dodge bonus vs. giants) +1 (Dodge feat) = 26

Then you sleep, gain a level, and pick up the feat. Next day you go to fight another giant.

The feat says "apply the racial bonus in place of the +1 dodge bonus". So to follow what the feat says to do, you look for your +1 dodge bonus, and apply the +4 instead


10 + 8 (full plate) + 2 (heavy shield) + 1 (Dex mod) + 4 (racial dodge bonus vs. giants) + 4 (Dodge feat bonus value replaced by the racial bonus value) = 29

The feat does not say to no longer apply the racial bonus, nor does it say to replace it, or use the dodge bonus instead. Therefore to no longer apply it is to create a rule. Since they are both dodge bonuses, they both stack.


Now, *if* they didn't want them both to work, it would have been easy to state "When you designate a creature at least one size category larger than you as the target of your Dodge feat, you may treat them as a giant in regards to any racial AC bonuses.

With your interpretation, the feat means your AC against giants goes *down* by taking that feat. That makes no sense at all.

 

[Fieari]

Except that dodge bonuses stack with each other. You always have a racial bonus against giants, but now your dodge bonus, from a feat, is being replaced with your racial bonus against giants, which stacks. I see it as there being a column, "Dodge Bonus from Feat" which is having the +1 value replaced with the +4, but this replacing doesn't effect the other column, "Dodge Bonus from Racial Trait (against Giants)". I see it as the feat and the trait being seperate, the one pulling data from the other.

In computer programming terms (which I tend to think in) it's the difference between calling by value, or calling by referece. The address or the value. You're saying that the address is being used, but I think it's the value...

 

[werk]

Now, let's say that you are fighting a Giant one size category larger than you. Can you show me where it says that the bonus from Titan Fighting replaces both the dodge bonus from the dodge feat and the racial dodge bonus against giants?

RAW, no, but I believe it to be poorly written and have suggested a corrective change.

I agree with you, but as written:
At what point does your DM-sense start tingling when someone wants to do this?
Would you allow this to work 'as written' in your game?

My answers are immediately, and no way.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not to be contrary, but:

Dodge Bonuses
...Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.

I can't find anything about racial dodge bonuses, but I'd think they are still dodge bonuses.
Edit: Actually, it is just a dodge bonus, per the text.

Even if it were described as a racial bonus:

Bonus Types: Many powers give creatures bonuses to ability scores, Armor Class, attacks, and other attributes. Each bonus has a type that indicates how the power grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus works. The same principle applies to penalties - a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one.

Dodge bonuses stack, and racial bonuses stack.

However... I fear I must agree that there's a difference between 'your racial bonus' and 'a bonus equal to your racial bonus'.

Compare the Paladin's Divine Grace: At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

... with the Blackguard's Dark Blessing: A blackguard applies his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws.

The Paladin has an unnamed bonus that happens to have the same value as his Charisma bonus. Unless otherwise specified, it will stack with a 'Charisma bonus to saving throws'.

The Blackguard, on the other hand, has a 'Charisma bonus to saving throws'. He only has one Charisma bonus, so if he finds another source that lets him add his Charisma bonus to saving throws, it's too late - he's already doing it. He can't apply the same bonus twice to the same thing.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In computer programming terms (which I tend to think in) it's the difference between calling by value, or calling by referece. The address or the value. You're saying that the address is being used, but I think it's the value...

Heh. I was going to use the same analogy, to draw the opposite conclusion.

The Blackguard is calling by reference.
The Paladin is calling by value.

By my reading, the Titan Fightin' feat resembles Dark Blessing more than Divine Grace, by the way it's worded.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I think I see what you are saying, I guess I'm just confused why you feel you can't apply that bonus twice. I've gone over the text of the feat again, and I'm still missing it.

I think Hyp says it best with this comment: "However... I fear I must agree that there's a difference between 'your racial bonus' and 'a bonus equal to your racial bonus'." This really does show explicitly in the computer programming analogy, that Titan Fighting uses the calling by reference. "Your racial bonus" is calling by reference and "a bonus equal to your racial bonus" would be calling by value (i.e. duplicating or doubling the bonus).