To the Noble Born. (finished)

[Zaset]

I made athletics untrained, changed Agatha's int to 6 (as it should be), and added in Alertness to my skills on the sheet. I guess I (or you) can change it whenever she's not around?

And then I posted it, y'know, over there.

For EvilHalfling's benefit, I thought I'd quote this. He'll understand.

 

[Evilhalfling]

Zaset - ahhh that makes more sense.

The gap grows and grows. This means that vital skills will not be as good, starting from 4th level.

True - I this can be overcome in Saga with Skill focus(+5) feats, but I think they have alot more feats to play with (possibly 1 per 2 levels like modern) then it stays even to 14th -
and at that point your full skill levels seldom matter. Although concentration may be an exception.

hmm table is not quite right. Should be: 5+1/2 level ie 3+5 at 6th level
Ranks 3.75 / 3.5
Level 1: 5 / 4
Level 2: 6 / 5
Level 3: 6 / 6
Level 4: 7 / 7
Level 5: 7 / 8
Level 6: 8 / 9

Perhaps everyone will get a free skill focus feat per 5 levels.

 

[wysiwyg]

hmm table is not quite right. Should be: 5+1/2 level ie 3+5 at 6th level
Ranks 3.75 / 3.5
Level 1: 5 / 4
Level 2: 6 / 5
Level 3: 6 / 6
Level 4: 7 / 7
Level 5: 7 / 8
Level 6: 8 / 9

The table is correct: at 6th level the group ranks are 8 (5+3).

Perhaps everyone will get a free skill focus feat per 5 levels.

The problem with a skill focus feat is that only one group will be boosted. In most cases, there are vital skills in different groups that need to be boosted.

I have a suggestion though. How about using your system with a little change:
Trained: 3 + Level (this will keep us on par with the 3.5)
Untrained: option 1: half of trained. or option 2: none.

BTW, there is another great GREAT flaw. If progress in trained groups is made according to the level alone, irrespective of ones class, everyone will take rogue as a first level (to get maximum groups) and then dump the class for their prefered class. This a) undermines the rogue class and b) unfairly empower other classes.

 

[WarShrike]

BTW, there is another great GREAT flaw. If progress in trained groups is made according to the level alone, irrespective of ones class, everyone will take rogue as a first level (to get maximum groups) and then dump the class for their prefered class. This a) undermines the rogue class and b) unfairly empower other classes.

How about the 1/2 level only counts the class level of the class that originally took the skill, and the 1/2 level is rounded down, thus is 0 at first. That would make untrained skills rely only on ability mods at first, and trained would be 5. but if the character started as rogue at 1st just for the large amount of skills, as wysiwyg points out, then switched to annother class, his Rogue trained skills would never rise. The only ones that would go up are the 1-2 others he got from multiclasing. And maybe the ones from Int bonuses and Human bonus, so long as these did not go into groups available only through his Rogue class and not his multi-class.

 

[Evilhalfling]

BTW, there is another great GREAT flaw. If progress in trained groups is made according to the level alone, irrespective of ones class, everyone will take rogue as a first level (to get maximum groups) and then dump the class for their prefered class. This a) undermines the rogue class and b) unfairly empower other classes.

Rogue still has its other disads - low starting hit points, a hit to caster level and BAB
If someone thinks this is worth it for the extra skills, I'm okay with that choice.
Plus they take a hit to known class skills, having to chose between Concentration and Spell craft for instance.

The problem with a skill focus feat is that only one group will be boosted. In most cases, there are vital skills in different groups that need to be boosted.

I have a suggestion though. How about using your system with a little change:
Trained: 3 + Level (this will keep us on par with the 3.5)

The primary advantage I see with my model is that all skills become useable at higher levels.
The 1/2 level in all untrained skills is crucial.
but the 3+ level model has some advantages, like meshing well with current DCs and
not needing new feats. This would reduce skill focus back to +3, nearly useless.


I'll consider this.

 

[wysiwyg]

Rogue still has its other disads - low starting hit points, a hit to caster level and BAB
If someone thinks this is worth it for the extra skills, I'm okay with that choice.
Plus they take a hit to known class skills, having to chose between Concentration and Spell craft for instance.

Let's analyse this. We'll compare two classes, the figher & the wizard who take on rogue as a first level choice instead of their own classes.

Fighter
Lose: 4hp, +1 BAB (once off loss only).
Gain: 4 times as many skill points for the rest of his career. A much broader variety of starting groups known. Also +2 Ref, Sneak attack & trapfinding.
Summary: very small loss compare to the great (continual) gain.


Wizard
Loss: Concentration/Spellcraft. -1 to caster's level.
Gain: 2 extra HP (no loss here), 4 times as many skill groups for the rest of his career. A much broader variety of starting groups known. Also +2 Ref, Sneak attack & trapfinding.
Summary: The loss again is a once off loss that can be compensated by a feat. The gain of skill points is eternal. No loss to BAB. BTW, how many feats would a wizard need to take to have the broad group range of a rogue? A lot more then the 2 needed for concentration & spellcraft.


My 2 cents
If the loss is finite (once off) and the gain is infinite (continuous), a game balance has certainly been breeched. The uniqueness of the rogue is his larger pool of skill points that he has. To offer it to other classes for a small fee doesn't make much sense.
Adding these 'glimpses' from 4E is insufficient without knowing how the game designers have compensated and restored game balance with other rules.

A new concern about untrained skills that go up half as much as trained skills. Surely not all untrained skills should go up. Imagine a PC who never touched a violin. Why would high levels make him a better violinists than when he was a low level PC? According to these rules, not only will he be a better violinist, but also a better musician in every instrument, or any other form of art without ever touching a paint brush or even reading a book. Can you imagine a 20th level barbarian, after spending a lifetime pillaging, tomb raiding, hacking and slashing, coming back to his tribal lands and composing Bach's symphonies and writing Shakespearing sonnets . Suddenly he knows how to craft magical items, survive in every imagined terrain (even if he has never set foot on a tundra, dessert, etc). These are just a few examples, but there are more.

 

[Evilhalfling]

Okay, I'm back. Internet connection? good. Not being able to remember password or even which email account was used to sign up in 2004? bad.

Assume skills as outlined in post #3, may change my mind later.
Moving on...

The night passes uneventfully unless anyone wants to disturb it.
The next morning you will be riding out, traveling for a week (or so) through mostly settled lands.
The roads are mostly 20' wide, frequently with shoulders, some have short stone walls marking fields.

1. What order do you ride in?
Straw Dog (assuming single file) : Jason, Reyburn, Xaos, Lilly, Kerin
2. Are you staying in taverns, camping or looking for lodging with the local nobility?
What would be your second choice?
further questions about guard shifts, # of rooms preferred, etc may be forthcoming or done IC.

I will set up the first day for Role-playing but feel free to make general statements about how you react to the others while your traveling during the first week.

 

[WarShrike]

Well, while we are still in civilized areas, Xaros votes on taverns, or nobles. As long as there's something to drink, he's happy. Also, taverns provide him with new audiences for his musical talents. Also while travelling the civilized areas, he will play now and then while on the road.

As for watches and rougher areas, he'd prefer to take first or last. Getting up in the middle of the night just isn't his thing. 8 (or more) hours of uninterrupted sleep is sweet. He'll sleep in armor, as it's light, and use the military saddle and saddlebags as pillows, making them as comfortable as possible of course.

Riding order: Somewhere in the middle is fine.

 

[Zaset]

Rayburn would prefer to travel as anonymously as possible, so he won't be wearing his noble's outfit on the road: generally the explorer's outfit, though if he thinks there might be an advantage in appearing as someone else, he may wear the scholar's, peasant's, or noble's outfits, possibly even breaking out the disguise kit.

He'd prefer camping, perhaps making a game of seeing who can bring in the most game after a campsite has been set up and firewood gathered. He'll volunteer to cook, and use prestidigitation to make it taste good, rendering his actual skill somewhat irrelevant. (And using up that spell slot each day they stop for the night).

If camping out is not an option, he'd prefer to stay in a tavern, though he knows he can technically call on the nearby nobles as a scion of house Hathwick to provide him hospitality.

Riding order, he'd prefer to be first or second, in position to constantly be on the watch. As for night watch, he'd prefer to go first or last.

 

[Evilhalfling]

I'm not gone, just sick. I'll post on the in game forum on the 2nd. The the meantime I have given this some more thought. I appreciate the contrasting view - this game is a shakedown for these house rules.

Let's analyse this. We'll compare two classes, the fighter & the wizard who take on rogue as a first level choice instead of their own classes.

Comparing this to 3.5 a multiclass rouge the 3.75 version gets +2 to 3-5 skills, but loses the ability to use some of the excess points for cross classing.

In most cases the way to make the most powerful character is to specialize. While most skills come into play only occasionally with Perception and Persuasion being the most used (non caster) skills.
The +1 to BAB can effect every fight, and delays multiple attacks. The multiclass also delays level based abilities, such as acquisition of higher levels spells for any caster. The -1 to caster lvl can be fixed with a feat, but its a bit of a waste.

Taking a level of Ranger or Barbarian is a better choice. Perhaps Barbs should start with 3 skills, and Rangers 5, while Bards stay at 6. Assuming that this doesn't affect the current game, does this seem more reasonable?

If the loss is finite (once off) and the gain is infinite (continuous),

No the advancement is fixed at 1/2 per level for all skills, the only advantage is the initial bonus of +5. In 3.5 the bonus for 1st lvl rogue would be +4 to 8 skills.

A new concern about untrained skills that go up half as much as trained skills. Surely not all untrained skills should go up.....

I am good with this, it works better than assuming a 20th level barbarian cant recognize a magic missle, or a 14th level fighter with no spot. It assumes that anyone reaching that level has spent some time sitting around talking to other adventures. Or otherwise picked up a little of everything, it fits my conception of a hero. The skill focus feat adding +5 means that a focused 1st lvl commoner can have a +12 assuming they have a 14 in one ability.
For an untrained adventurer to equal this, with no feats or training they would be 16-20th level, depending on attribute bonuses.

Adding these 'glimpses' from 4E is insufficient without knowing how the game designers have compensated and restored game balance with other rules.

Thats true, its a consideration. For instance I considered triple hp at 1st level, but that changes the limited spell dynamic with both healing and damage. I assume 4e will fix this with per encounter/at will abilities, as well as second wind. Compared to this skills are easier and less dangerous to tinker with. hmm except that x3 hp may be a counter to the bonus skills. ah well.
Lets see how it plays.

I think that more granted feats in 4e is another fix to correct skills at high levels. How this set of HR accounts for it is still a good question. Do you have other suggestions?