D&D 5E Tomb of Horrors: Is All Poison Save or Die?

[Sands999]

I'm reading through the original ToH for AD&D, and converting it for my 5e campaign. There are a lot of instances where poison is used. In the first instance it is used (a pit trap), it states that the poison is save or die. Later, many other instances of poison (traps, snake bites, etc) are mentioned but it does not specify if it is save or die. It just says "poison".

The adventure seems fun, and super deadly, but not so well written...

Does anyone know if the poison is supposed to instantly kill in all cases that it is used? I feel like reading this adventure needs more context that I am not getting. Maybe at Origins I it was understood as instant death poison. Or maybe I need to buy the AD&D rules and read that.... but I was hoping someone here could answer instead.

Any help is appreciated.

 

[Eubani]

Earlier editions were full of save or die mechanics and you were pretty much always one bad dice roll away from losing your character. 5e is a lot friendlier in that poisons generally do some poison damage + poisoned condition save for half and not gain condition. Some poisons will apply other status effects. Check DMG for further info.

 

[Sands999]

Thanks. I wanted to see how AD&D handled poison. I decided to purchase the AD&D rules on PDFs at Dungeons & Dragons Classics, and I read through the AD&D DMG. It states ther that normally, "poisons are an all or nothing affair."

D&D 5e, does not do things this way. However, to maintain the shadowy spirit of ToH, the poisons in the dungeon will instantly drop the character to 0 HP and begin making death saves in this run of the adventure. Unfair? I say no. This is because my players have a ton of full heal potions and dropping to 0 instantly is not death per se. They'll have a chance to fully restore the characters up to ten times a piece. And there is a cleric and a Druid who can both cast reincarnation. This'll put them on high alert though.

 

[machineelf]

Yeah it depends on how you want to approach it. And I'd say it depends on what your group wants. Do they understand this is a dangerous place where they may (likely will) die? Or are they going into it with their long-beloved characters they put a lot of time and effort into?

Do you want to make it true to the original? Then make all those traps super deadly with save or dies. Do you want to tone it down a lot and make it more inline with modern dungeons, then make the traps do some damage but not necessarily kill outright. And even if you tone down the traps, the end will still be super deadly, unless you nerf that encounter by a lot.

When we ran it and converted it to 5e, we did it as a side quest, so we made characters just for it that we knew were likely to die. It was a blast. But I've heard stories of DMs who ran it as part of their ongoing campaigns without warning their players of how deadly it is. When their characters died, they were pissed at the DM and friendships were lost. I definitely wouldn't recommend doing that.

 

[thanson02]

If I remember correctly, Tales of the Yawning Portal Adventure book that's coming out has a fully updated version of the original Tomb of Horrors for 5E. Probably not a bad idea to check it out.

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[Sands999]

Yeah it depends on how you want to approach it. And I'd say it depends on what your group wants. Do they understand this is a dangerous place where they may (likely will) die? Or are they going into it with their long-beloved characters they put a lot of time and effort into?

Do you want to make it true to the original? Then make all those traps super deadly with save or dies. Do you want to tone it down a lot and make it more inline with modern dungeons, then make the traps do some damage but not necessarily kill outright. And even if you tone down the traps, the end will still be super deadly, unless you nerf that encounter by a lot.

When we ran it and converted it to 5e, we did it as a side quest, so we made characters just for it that we knew were likely to die. It was a blast. But I've heard stories of DMs who ran it as part of their ongoing campaigns without warning their players of how deadly it is. When their characters died, they were pissed at the DM and friendships were lost. I definitely wouldn't recommend doing that.

I'm going full force. They'll quickly know what they're up against when they see the face of the green devil. That said, if they do all die, I won't just leave them that way. I'll bring them back for the campaign because their allies would definitely come looking for them. But of course I won't tell them that right away hehe.

I've also introduced the idea of running a side quest for this campaign using different characters. They'll be able to try out different play test classes and races. Break things up. So if they do all get offed, I'm thinking that they're characters will be brought back by an ally. But months will have passed since they died and things in the campaign will have changed. The plan would be to introduce that resurrection moment at the end. Then next game delve into side quests that have changed the setting somewhat in my home brew.

In this way I feel I will give them a real chance to test themselves against the REAL ToH, and not end their characters and the campaign if they fail. So if they survive it is well earned and they'll walk away with a shirt saying "I suRcice the Tomb of Horrors". If not, it'll be a plot point into the campaign arc.

What do you think of that?

 

[machineelf]

What do you think of that?

You know your group better than I. But my gut reaction is that even if you do bring them back from the dead but you don't tell them that until the end of the campaign when they have all finally died (and they will all die, especially if they have never played ToH before and have no knowledge of it), then you will still have to deal with upset and agitated players for the session.

So my feeling is that it's better and more fun for everyone to let them know ahead of time that if they die they get brought back to life later, and that it's a really tough dungeon. Otherwise if you surprise them with it, you might be causing heartache.

But like I said, and I really mean this, you know the nature of your group the best. So go with whatever you think is the most fun.

Edit: I hope that didn't come across as me giving a lecture or sounding pretentious. I just mean that every group is different. When we played it, we knew ahead of time our characters would die, and we still had a blast. But I could see other groups enjoying being surprised by the danger of the adventure.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I think "save or drop" (to 0 HP) is a great idea. It would scare them but you shouldn't kill anyone too often. If it was from poison, I'd give them the poisoned condition for at least an hour after they wake up (because I think it's fun to play a poisoned-drunk character, and more immersive). Obviously spells and short rests can fix that anyway so it's not like you're being too mean.

I look forward to seeing how Yawning Portal handles it. I'd also like to know if they got the new cartographers to redraw the maps!

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[the Jester]

Does anyone know if the poison is supposed to instantly kill in all cases that it is used? I feel like reading this adventure needs more context that I am not getting. Maybe at Origins I it was understood as instant death poison. Or maybe I need to buy the AD&D rules and read that.... but I was hoping someone here could answer instead.

In 1e, not all poison was instant death... but you could assume that, unless otherwise noted, it was.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*