Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords - Things to watch out for?

[Rystil Arden]

Not really. We don't know how they were built. And more feats for a Fighter doesn't necessarily make them better, unless there are a lot more feats around that specifically power them up in their specialty. A fighter that just has options between Combat Expertise and Power Attack and archery isn't really that focused in his effectiveness. Even one who focuses just on the CE feat tree will basically be picking up feats for 3 or 4 different tactics, rather than reinforcing his offensive or defensive power in one area.

If that Warblade started out with Monk as his first 2 levels, then he'd have access to higher-level maneuvers a bit sooner (same as a pure Warblade, just 1 character level later). And it's not like he has several levels of Monk, it's just 2. The Undying Way fighting style for monks sucks, but the +2 on Concentration checks could be useful for Insightful Strike and some other Diamond Mind maneuvers, so it may not be a total loss (and Evasion helps). He may be a tad less offensively powerful, but his saving throws will be superior and he may be more effective with Diamond Mind strikes and counters. So I dunno if it's a benefit or not.

It's definitely not a benefit over regular Warblade. Also, imagine, for instance, if the two dip levels were in Swordsage instead of Monk. That 2nd-level Swordsage Wis to AC while in light armour can be fairly ridiculous.

 

[Videssian]

It's definitely not a benefit over regular Warblade. Also, imagine, for instance, if the two dip levels were in Swordsage instead of Monk. That 2nd-level Swordsage Wis to AC while in light armour can be fairly ridiculous.

True, but I didn't go that route, because Wis = 9.. and in part because actual physical items are quite limited (think mesoamerican bronze age tech)... one reason I went the "unarmed specialist" route, and monk fit right into that.. (was WAY worth the tradeoff of losing 1 maneuver level, and the +2 Concentration from Undying Way is icing on the cake). That said, base damage on his attacks is still weak (1d6), and will remain so until I take Superior Unarmed Strike later on. Another tradeoff is his completely pathetic AC.. but then, he's got extremely high hit points to balance that (121, double that of anyone else in the party, including the fighter).

The wierd thing is, sometimes the pc will get really beat on and no-one else gets hurt.. but there's also times that like last time, despite his low AC, he doesn't get a scratch, and everyone else gets seriously wounded.. not because the pc isn't in the thick of things (he is), but sometimes it's just because, well, Evasion does have it's good side

 

[Rystil Arden]

True, but I didn't go that route, because Wis = 9.. and in part because actual physical items are quite limited (think mesoamerican bronze age tech)... one reason I went the "unarmed specialist" route, and monk fit right into that.. (was WAY worth the tradeoff of losing 1 maneuver level, and the +2 Concentration from Undying Way is icing on the cake). That said, base damage on his attacks is still weak (1d6), and will remain so until I take Superior Unarmed Strike later on. Another tradeoff is his completely pathetic AC.. but then, he's got extremely high hit points to balance that (121, double that of anyone else in the party, including the fighter).

The wierd thing is, sometimes the pc will get really beat on and no-one else gets hurt.. but there's also times that like last time, despite his low AC, he doesn't get a scratch, and everyone else gets seriously wounded.. not because the pc isn't in the thick of things (he is), but sometimes it's just because, well, Evasion does have it's good side

Hmm, with Wis=9, no Monk AC bonus either. I'd have probably dipped Rogue for that Evasion.

 

[Videssian]

Hmm, with Wis=9, no Monk AC bonus either. I'd have probably dipped Rogue for that Evasion.

I considered that, but then I wouldn't have gotten the unarmed combat stuff. If I hadn't been going for that, then I very likely would have chosen rogue instead.

 

[Arkhandus]

Are you advancing in monk right now, or warblade, though? Cuz Superior Unarmed Strike by itself won't make you potent in unarmed combat, a d8 isn't much better than d6 unarmed damage.

And I'm assuming you just rolled real well on HP and have a high Constitution, eh (which also, consequently, helps with Concentration checks at least)?

 

[Videssian]

Are you advancing in monk right now, or warblade, though? Cuz Superior Unarmed Strike by itself won't make you potent in unarmed combat, a d8 isn't much better than d6 unarmed damage.

And I'm assuming you just rolled real well on HP and have a high Constitution, eh (which also, consequently, helps with Concentration checks at least)?

Yep, excellent rolls (for once!) + high con + con item equivalent..

Superior Unarmed Strike won't make a huge difference true, but it will make a difference, especially later on, which is when I intend on taking it.

I don't plan on taking any more Monk levels, that would be counterproductive because they only count for 1/2 of a Warblade maneuver level.

 

[RigaMortus2]

True, but I didn't go that route, because Wis = 9.. and in part because actual physical items are quite limited (think mesoamerican bronze age tech)... one reason I went the "unarmed specialist" route, and monk fit right into that..

Are you aware that the Swordsage Adaptation (listed under the Swordsage class) allows for you to get the Monk's unarmed damage progression and lose the light armor proficiency? Note that this means you still would need to take Improved Unarmed Strike feat and you can still apply Wis to AC when wearing light armor, you just need to pick that proficiency as well if you so choose...

 

[Videssian]

Are you aware that the Swordsage Adaptation (listed under the Swordsage class) allows for you to get the Monk's unarmed damage progression and lose the light armor proficiency? Note that this means you still would need to take Improved Unarmed Strike feat and you can still apply Wis to AC when wearing light armor, you just need to pick that proficiency as well if you so choose...

I considered it, and maybe I'll go that route if I refactor the pc at some future point, but for now given that he's advancing as Warblade and not Swordsage, it doesn't really apply.

 

[Nail]

So you greatly beefed up the fighter, have a warblade mixed with a weaker fighter type (monk) and with nerf to the warblade and its STILL stronger than the fighter!!? Now that's saying something

Heh, heh....no, the Mnk/Warblade (Videssian in this thread) knows what he's doing. Videssian knows how to give his DMs challenges -- I've seen him do it in other groups as well. And - for the record - challenging your DM in this way is a Good Thing(tm) in my book.

Still, Warblades (and the other martial adept classes) gives the players lots of powerful tools to do so.

IMC, the PCs are equipment poor, so going with Unarmed Strikes was a reasonable idea. Videssian's build has some flaws (poor Will Saves, pathetic AC), but his manuevers (Moment of Perfect Mind), hp (huge Con score, which doubles as a Str damage bonus and Will save), and luck have covered them.

I've had to think carefully about how my campaign can present challenges to this PC; if I ran a "standard campaign" I might have had serious problems. For example, Will saves often come only one-at-a-time in published modules, and the Warblade can laugh these off. Another example: Power Attack is rarely used in published modules => but it's quite effective against this PC build.

It's all good fun....but ToB:Bo9S should have a caution sticker on th' front.

 

[castro3nw]

It's definitely not a benefit over regular Warblade. Also, imagine, for instance, if the two dip levels were in Swordsage instead of Monk. That 2nd-level Swordsage Wis to AC while in light armour can be fairly ridiculous.

There is one slight benefit to it over a regular warblade... 2 levels of any class then moving to warblade gives you the option of a 3rd level stance. With their 2nd stance coming in at warblade4, you're usually stuck with another 1st level stance because there aren't any 2nd level ones.

Granted, if those 2 levels were swordsage like you're suggesting, he'd already have 1-2 stances, so it might not be as big of a deal.