True Critical damage

[StAlda]

This is a streaming of consciousness, so bear with me...

I've been thinking for awhile about the abstaction of hit points - even the abstraction of combat in the 1st Ed. In 1e a round took a minute with the idea that within that minute you have one good clean chance to hurt your opponent, and that was your attack roll.

Now, 4e has abstacted the hit points a little more (and to the better I believe), to really show the "wearing out" of the character - thus second wind where you gain your...uh...second wind. And then after the fact you can healing surge yourself back to full vigor pretty quick.

So along comes a critical hit; let's say this is a hit that actually DOES damage, cuts the skin, crushes a muscle, etc. That one hit every minute in 1e combat. What if a healing surge could not heal damage from a critical? (I would take away the current extra damage a crit does, and just say the normal damage done was critical damage) This damage sticks with you.

I would like to make combat a little more than a nice workout followed by a massage and some time in the sauna if time permits. Which I feel healing surges kinda do to combat (from strictly a hit point point of view).


Also I like the idea of a critical hit to be more rare (as some have suggested below). Either needing to exceed AC by 10, or by having to "comfirm" a critical hit (meaning you've rolled the 20, now roll to hit again - success means crit).

Crits heal on its own 1d6 hp per day. A cleric would have another Class feature - something like this below:

Cure Critical Wounds
Cleric Feature
You utter a simple prayer as divine light washes over your target, healing their most grievous wounds.
Daily ✦ Divine, Healing
Standard Action Close burst 5 (10 at 11th level, 15 at 21st level)
Target: You or one ally
Effect: The target is healed 1d6 + Wisdom modifier of critical hit points.
Increase critical hit points healed to 2d6 + Wisdom modifier at 11th level and 3d6 + Wisdom modifier at 21st level.

Critical hits do not have extra/max damage, you roll damage normally, but they affect your maximum hit points. On the character sheet you'll have 2 scores one is Healthy MAX HP and the Current MAX HP. Current MAX HP does not affect you bloodied or healing surge values.


I don't see this being a bookkeeping nightmare any more than tracking healing surges, dailies used or other items that need to be tracked beyond an encounter.

That's what I got so far....

 

[porter235]

I don't like the idea of having yet more to keep track of, but I do like the idea that there are some HP loses that are much harder to recover from.

brainstorming....

Maybe it temporarily lowers your max hp until you are fixed up good, either by lots of bed rest or a proper healing... not just a pep talk by a party member.

Given the abstraction of HP, it could be a severe blow, or something that sends the character into a deep depression, lessening their resolve to live and fight.

 

[StAlda]

I don't see the difference between tracking Max HP or tracking "critical" damage, but obviously either woud work - players choice.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Just slap Wounded X on the character as a tag and have it work like vulnerabilities. A Wounded 5 character takes 5 extra damage when hit. Remove by ritual or bedrest.

 

[Syrsuro]

If I were to make a change in this direction, it would be to have crits do ongoing damage 5 until healed (including a Heal Check to stop the bleeding).

But since I already consider criticals to be too swingy (I don't mind killing a PC through normal attacks as that indicates that he miscalculated the odds. But I'm not a big fan of dropping them through sheer lucky rolls) I don't see any reason to change criticals. YMMV. At least they aren't as swingy as they were in 3.x.

Hmm...

Maybe do away with the max damage rule and add in the ongoing damage rule....

Carl

 

[Naszir]

This is a streaming of consciousness, so bear with me...

I've been thinking for awhile about the abstaction of hit points - even the abstraction of combat in the 1st Ed. In 1e a round took a minute with the idea that within that minute you have one good clean chance to hurt your opponent, and that was your attack roll.

Now, 4e has abstacted the hit points a little more (and to the better I believe), to really show the "wearing out" of the character - thus second wind where you gain your...uh...second wind. And then after the fact you can healing surge yourself back to full vigor pretty quick.

So along comes a critical hit; let's say this is a hit that actually DOES damage, cuts the skin, crushes a muscle, etc. That one hit every minute in 1e combat. What if a healing surge could not heal damage from a critical? (I would take away the current extra damage a crit does, and just say the normal damage done was critical damage) This damage sticks with you. It heals on its own 1 hp (or something similar) per day. A cleric could have another Class feature - something like this below:

Cure Critical Wounds
Cleric Feature
You whisper a brief prayer as divine light washes over your target, helping to mend its wounds.
Daily ✦ Divine, Healing
Standard Action Close burst 5 (10 at 11th level, 15 at 21st level)
Target: You or one ally
Effect: The target is healed X number of critical hit points.

Or it could be a ritual, whatever...

I don't see this being a bookkeeping nightmare any more than tracking healing surges, dailies used or other items that need to be tracked beyond an encounter.

Any thoughts?

I like this idea. How about instead of creating a new power just say that any power with the keyword Healing can cure critical wounds?

Healing surges used by characters on their own will not heal critical wounds but any healing surge that is prompted by a power with the keyword Healing will cure critical wounds.

 

[Odysseus]

The system i"ve been using is a form of condition track.
Where if a character is bloodied or goes to zero hp, after the encounter they have to make a first aid check or take 1 point critical damage(one point on the condition tracK) Whatever the condition track is at, is the PCs penalty to hit, and on skill checks. The concept being hps, are morale/fatigue or damage that can be recovered by rest. While critical damage can't just be recovered by rest, it requires some sort of meidcal attention.
And there is a ritual to remove critical damage.
One of my players has suggested that instead of bloodied and zero hps to determine when the character takes criitcal damage, we use critical hits. As yet we are still debating the merits.

 

[StAlda]

I like this idea. How about instead of creating a new power just say that any power with the keyword Healing can cure critical wounds?

Healing surges used by characters on their own will not heal critical wounds but any healing surge that is prompted by a power with the keyword Healing will cure critical wounds.

For what I'm trying accomplish, that really woundn't work since Healing Word is an encounter power and has the keyword healing. The cleric would cure all the "critical" after every battle. Whatever power would cure it would have to be a dailypower/ritual and I don't think it should be 1/4 of your hit points - again one cast and it is wiped clean.

But I appreciate the input!

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

StAlda, if I am reading this right, you are looking for a mechanic that provides a longer lasting impact from taking damage in combat...

Back before the rule books came out, there was a thread on how to emulate long term disability in the system. The idea I left the thread with is a simple process:

Each time you take a critical hit your max healing surges are reduced by 1.
If you go under zero hit points, your max healing surges is reduced by 2.
This does not change your current number of healing surges.

During an extended rest, you regain a number of healing surges equal to the reduced maximum. You then increase your max healing by 1, up to your original score.

This method is simple to track, doesn't impact on the math of the current encounter, and makes a critical something to remember...and means that if you get dropped out of a fight, its going to affect you for a while.

I haven't had the chance to see this in playtest, but the theory is sound. The part I like the best is that the mechanic provides the option for having a worn out adventuring/combat group that has to stop after days of serious combat.

 

[BendBars/LiftGates]

My first thought is that you might find it easiest to do something like institute a Wound Points system like in the older edition of Star Wars. These are your last reserve of hit points, and your character is hampered by wounds after he suffers damage to these. So, in combat you must wear down your opponents vitality points, then wear down his wound points in order to kill him. However, if you score a critical, you roll damage normally but this damage is immediately applied directly to the combatant's wound points.

However, my second thought is that I'd be against instituting something like this in my campaign. It definitely goes against two 4th Edition principles. The first is extra rulekeeping. I don't think the game stands to gain enough fun to warrant putting in a new subsystem like this. The second is the death spiral. The game tends to avoid situations where a character is punished for taking damage, since that simply snowballs into character death. Hence, the term "death spiral."

If you wanted this sort of thing in the game, I think Frostmarrow's "wounded" status is pretty elegant. It's the least bookkeeping and works with rules already present in the game, which is also a strong plus. Say that taking a critical hit from an enemy applies the Wounded state to you, and that while wounded, you gain vulnerable 5 to all damage sources. If the enemy that scored a critical hit is of the paragon tier, the wounded state instead bestows vulnerable 10, and if the enemy is epic it bestows vulnerable 15.