"Try Castles & Crusades", they say. But no one's playing it!

[gideon_thorne]

Just a few points .

1) Why play C&C when one can play AD&D instead?

For those who like in print, proven, product support, the answer is clear.

2) Numbers of players. Someone gave a figure of books sold earlier in the thread. I dont have a 100% accurate figure, but they were close, if a fairly bit low in their estimate. There definitely will be a third printing. C&C is selling that well. Yes, its not possessed of a huge market saturation. But what else besides White Wolf and WOTC really is? C&C is growing however. It is supported by more than one company. Goodman's DCC conversions come to mind. James Mishler's Judges guild modules also come to mind. Gary Gygax supports it, which may carry weight for those who respect the man and what he created.

As for folks talking about it on the net... The clear majority of C&C's sales come from people who have never been on these or any other message board.

In my area there are a fair number of C&C folks. I helped a 32 person group get started myself.

3) Compatability. Honestly, I've read litterally thousands of threads going on about this problem and I really dont see what the big deal is?

Feats, skills and all that sort of thing can be easily abstracted into the C&C system by some simply penalties on a to hit roll or an ability check. But instead of being locked down to a specific set of pre chosen abilties, characters can have a try at attempting any type of ability. The success of which is subsumed into the roll.

Want a + that a feat gives you in combat? Simple, apply a proportional negative to the to hit roll then describe the result. Its all there embeded into the C&C system.

Course, for those who actually need a defined skills system, there is a more or less 'official' one for free available on the TLG website. It's from the Castle Zagyg: yggsburg. There is also a multiclassing and dual classing system included for those who find such useful.

Oh yes. If a particular game shop doesn't carry C&C products the solution is simple. Go to the TLG boards and let them know the stores contact info. Steve, the manager of TLG, has absolutely zero problem picking up the phone and calling any particular store and talking up the system.

 

[T. Foster]

Just a few points .

1) Why play C&C when one can play AD&D instead?

For those who like in print product support, the answer is clear.

Yup: OSRIC.

 

[Pramas]

Wow! How can you guys stay in business or do this full time? If a book costs $40 (maybe low, maybe high) were talking only $200,000 for a "hit."

If only. Publishers don't actually get the full price for a product. For print products sold through game stores, publishers generally get only 40% of the cover price. Distributors get another slice of that and retailers get the rest. This is one reason why a great show like GenCon is such a shot in the arm for publishers. They get to sell direct for full price. (Of course, they also have to buy a booth, pay for travel and hotel, etc.)

That has to go to pay how many people, costs, overhead, benefits, etc. After all that what is the net profit or margin on these things?

Make no mistake, if your goal is to make a good living with benefits, the game industry is not for you. A secretary with two years of commmunity college training makes more money than 95% of the people in the game industry. There are a few companies where you can make a good wage and get a benefits package. Those jobs are few and far between.

As far as d20 stuff goes, you have to realize that 5,000 would be a real exceptional seller these days. Most d20 books in the current market sell less than 500 copies. That's why so much d20 support has moved to a PDF model instead of print.

 

[Akrasia]

Yup: OSRIC.

OSRIC is designed to enable people to produce for-profit OAD&D compatible material. It is not meant to be a complete game system in its own right, unlike C&C.

In any case, given the ease of conversion between C&C and OAD&D, both OSRIC and C&C material could be used for OAD&D and C&C games. I support both OSRIC products and C&C products (well, the ones that I think are decent).

I don't get people who try to pit OSRIC versus C&C. It makes no sense to me.

 

[Akrasia]

Ah Akrasia, I still love the preamble to that review...

Thanks!

 

[T. Foster]

I don't get people who try to pit OSRIC versus C&C. It makes no sense to me.

I'm not trying to pit OSRIC vs. C&C. I was simply responding to Peter's statement that if you want to play AD&D but want in-print product support that "the answer is clear" that you should play C&C instead. OSRIC (or, rather, OSRIC-compatible products) provides another possible answer.

 

[Akrasia]

I'm not trying to pit OSRIC vs. C&C. I was simply responding to Peter's statement that if you want to play AD&D but want in-print product support that "the answer is clear" that you should play C&C instead. OSRIC (or, rather, OSRIC-compatible products) provides another possible answer.

Okay, sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[gideon_thorne]

Akrasia, the contention between disparate playing styles, games, systems, ect that I have witnessed for the past 4 years bewilders the life out of me.

All the hystrionics over a hobby, honestly.

Wont catch me at it. Play what one enjoys I say.

But back to the original topic of the thread.

I am not a salesman. I'm bloody rotten at it actually. For me to sit here and try and 'sell' something to someone who may not find it suitable just doesn't sit well personally.

My main question, open to anyone who cares to jump in, is; "What is it your looking for in a given game?"

If C&C can acomplish a given person's play goals, I'll be happy to explain how. If not, i'll point out something else that might suit better.

Its all the same to me.

Perhaps if anyone has any pertinent, relavent, questions on how, or even if, C&C can aid them in their gaming needs, that might be a better place to start?

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Most d20 books in the current market sell less than 500 copies. That's why so much d20 support has moved to a PDF model instead of print.

Now THAT's an interesting number (much lower than I expected). Pied Piper Publishing had a print run of 500 for their 1E module, Cairn of the Skeleton King, and it sold 400 copies as of September 1st. That's a 1E module with word-of-mouth "advertising."

I imagine that a larger percentage of the total market for niche products is buying (fewer choices, more "hunger for product") than in the 3E/d20 market. Joe Goodman made that point, talking about the bitching and moaning over the quick sell-out of his 1E release of Iron Crypt of the Heretics:

On the subject of the print run, this module was obviously underprinted. Those of you who take this as (a) an insult or (b) a comment on my intelligence are mistaken. If you took the same assumptions about the relative sizes of the 1E and 3E markets, and applied it to the sales data I have access to (both for myself and other companies), you would come up with a print run in the same range. The distinguishing variable in this case, which I missed, is the propensity to buy: it appears that a significant portion of the 1E market is willing to buy a new module, whereas a new 3E module appears to only a small portion of the much larger 3E market. Missing that variable was where the calculations went wrong. (Link to original post on Dragonsfoot)

 

[jdrakeh]

I play it three times a month, with three to five other players (I run an open C&C campaign at the FLGS).