"Try Castles & Crusades", they say. But no one's playing it!

[Philotomy Jurament]

With respect to HERO and the current version of D&D, both strike me as games that are difficult to master. So I can see why a group that has been playing one or the other might balk at the notion of learning yet another game. I wonder if the same thing happens with Rolemaster groups?

I used to run a Middle Earth campaign using Rolemaster -- fun game, but very different from D&D (in any form). Three of the players in my new C&C game were Rolemaster gamers (in a different group -- not mine). They didn't balk at all.

I never got into HERO, though. I tried it -- it just never grabbed me. Back in the day, I used Superworld (Chaosium) for superhero gaming. (These days, I'd use Mutants and Masterminds.) Superworld wasn't a perfect system, but I liked BRP -- especially Call of Cthulhu and Stormbringer. I still run BRP Call of Cthulhu, every once in a while.

 

[Blustar]

You have the druggees, the punks, and the flunk out college students...all of which have moral fibers which are detestable, and I wouldn't game with at ALL since much of their gaming centers around adults subjects...but not only adult subjects, but subjects that are approached in such a way as to be reprehensible to normal society.

Ummm...those are pretty strong words for people you don't even know aren't they? I understand where you're coming from ( I have kids too) but I remember feeling the same way 15 years ago while seeing a bunch of "punks" or "losers" playing AD&D. Young people drink/smoke to excess in every generation. IT doesn't mean they're spineless, just foolish. You can never flunk out of college as it's still there waiting for you! Waiting to take your money...


Blue

 

[Rel]

You consider being a nerd an insult?

You used it as a perjorative and applied it to all 3.X D&D players. Yes that qualifies as an insult.

You are correct, normally the nerds aren't quite the ones that are creepy. They are the ones that are so involved with the mathematical processes that it jives me the wrong way (and if telling the truth is wrong...then there's no wonder why a LOT of the 3e/3.5 players are more like this now...my brother in law and people like him being the exceptions of course). I DON'T like playing with them, they really do creep me out.

Ah, so you DO consider nerd to be something bad.

However, I think it's great for those types as they normally make muchos money. It's better than the other two types of 3e/3.5 players I've noticed, and these I DO avoid with a passion and keep my kids away from.

You have the druggees, the punks, and the flunk out college students...all of which have moral fibers which are detestable, and I wouldn't game with at ALL since much of their gaming centers around adults subjects...but not only adult subjects, but subjects that are approached in such a way as to be reprehensible to normal society.

Generalize much? It happens that I'm married, have a child and don't do drugs. Are you SURE that I'm not "reprehensible"? Oh, wait, I dropped out of college. Bingo. I'm horrid.

I tend to avoid those. Perhaps it's the type of people playing, but for some reason those playing many of the other RPGs (and ironically that includes other D20 games, for example Star Wars D20 doesn't seem to exhibit those traits amongst players...nerds certainly, but normally not the detestable ones) don't have as many of the druggees, punks, and flunkouts as D&D 3e/3.5 edition does. At least reprehensible to what I would game with.

I'm taking notes here: Star Wars d20 has good players and so does C&C. D&D 3.X has bad players. Gotcha.

You know it's bad when one of the local hobby shops, you go in on a game day and all you can see is smoke, the alcohol is already heavy on people (at 2 PM mind you), and some of them smell like certain illegal substances. After that I started avoiding that place, and of course it shut down a few months ago (not because I stopped going, but I have this idea that this type of atmosphere doesn't attract others to play). The other hobby shop is more a comics shop which also caters to miniature players. That one has a pretty good atmosphere actually.

You do understand that even if this experience wasn't tainted by your seemingly massive bias, it in no way constitutes evidence of a trend. And are you somehow suggesting that if those people were playing C&C that they wouldn't be drunk or stoned?

Your right, I don't post much.

I normally lurk...so sue me.

Whether or not you continue to post is entirely up to you. I'm not going to ban you. But if you post again I suggest that you read the RULES because you've managed to break one in BOTH of your first two posts ("namecalling" and "questioning an action by a Mod on the boards"). If you have any further questions about these rules, please feel free to contact a moderator by e-mail.

 

[Umbran]

Noting a certain aspect of society which a parent with kids, OR on people who might respect, but not want to hang out with on Friday nights I suppose is now banned, as is truth.

Hardly - but what you're doing is using inductive logic, and calling it (at least here by association) "truth". Or, in simpler terms, you are overgeneralizing - taking your personal experience and assuming it applies broadly.

This is the typical problem of using stereotypes that hinge on undesireable qualities. The real truth is that many people don't fit well into your categories - and every one of them will feel you've branded them with qualities they don't posess. And by the descriptions you're using, the qualities are all negative. So, yes, they'll feel insulted.

The truth is not banned, we just suggest that you be very, very careful what you call truth.

If you feel the need to discuss it further, please feel free to take it up with one of the moderators in private. Our e-mail addresses are all available in a post stickied to the top of the Meta Forum.

 

[tenkar]

I must have a mildly detestable moral fiber... took me 8 1/2 years to get my B.A. (sorry, had to work my way thru school)... heh

The words "ALL" and "EVERY" are very strong words to use... use them carefully, because most generalizations are wrong.

As an aside, EnWorld has one of the most pleasant post atmospheres I know of in the gaming forum world... much more civil then other boards I won't mention.

Back to the original topic at hand... I like C&C although I find it far from perfect. Course, I've yet to find the perfect game, and C & C is less top heavy and friendlier on the wallet (especially for those of us with extensive OD&D, AD&D and 2nd edtion rules filling ones closet)

 

[Rothe]

If only. Publishers don't actually get the full price for a product. For print products sold through game stores, publishers generally get only 40% of the cover price. Distributors get another slice of that and retailers get the rest. This is one reason why a great show like GenCon is such a shot in the arm for publishers. They get to sell direct for full price. (Of course, they also have to buy a booth, pay for travel and hotel, etc.)



Make no mistake, if your goal is to make a good living with benefits, the game industry is not for you. A secretary with two years of commmunity college training makes more money than 95% of the people in the game industry. There are a few companies where you can make a good wage and get a benefits package. Those jobs are few and far between.

As far as d20 stuff goes, you have to realize that 5,000 would be a real exceptional seller these days. Most d20 books in the current market sell less than 500 copies. That's why so much d20 support has moved to a PDF model instead of print.

Pramas, thanks for the reply, thanks also to WayneLigon too I'll have to check that blog. I was hoping you'd say there was gold in them thar' hills. I think I'll keep my day job. But more power to you all that stick with to keep RPGs alive.

 

[Akrasia]

Pramas, thanks for the reply ... more power to you all that stick with to keep RPGs alive.

It is especially important that you continue to produce excellent games like WFRP and True20.

 

[Rhuvein]

I'm playing C&C!

"Try Castles & Crusades", they say. But no one's playing it!"

Hehe, I'm playing it and have for about a year and half! With a little effort you can too. It may take some time, but you need to use some of the usual avenues of recruitment, i.e. - library, game store & local newspaper messages/ads. Use online forums to post your town and recruitment message. And there are many other ways, that escape me at the moment.

Another thought for some current gaming is an online PBP game so you can get a feel for the game. I'm currently playing in several games which are a lot of fun.
Keep trying and I'm sure you'll be able to put a game together!

 

[PeelSeel2]

I CK Castles and Crusades. I started gaming in 1982 and quit in 1993. I sold all my stuff in 2000. In 2003 I decided I needed a hobby, so I got back into gaming. Bought the 3.5E Players Handbook, Monster Manual, and DM's guide. Got a group together from the local college, and started DM'ing again. We play every Friday. When I first encountered C&C I thought why? But bought it anyways. In the meantime, I was getting burnt out on running 3.5E. Man! Prep time is a bitch, levels come fast, and the plethora of special abilities, feats, etc make it hard to maintain a challenge game over a long period of time without MASSIVE prep work. With all the options, IMO, it limited the players thinking. Then the Monsters and Treasures came out, and I got it. I started 'hanging' out at the C&C boards. Great community! So one day I had enough of DM'ing.

I was not liking my hobby anymore. Either the hobby had to go or something had to change. All of my players were die hard 3.5E'ers. But I sat them down and said I need a change, this is what I want to do and why. They agreed to try it. We converted the characters over and started using C&C. The players have eventually learned to really like the seige engine, the different way spells work, and the difficulty of gaining levels (They are more of a treasure now). The best thing they liked and I liked was how much we got done in sessions. I got a new player who has DM'd 3.5E for a while. After her first gaming session with us she said 'Wow! We got more done in this time than we ever did with 3.5E! No miniatures, no rules arguments, just gaming!"

The characters are as 'different' as they where in 3.5E, they just don't have 50 rules defining how they are different. I have one player who has a Half-Elf who is a Fighter/Rogue. He said hey I really want the ability to many shot. Fine, we worked it out. The wizard in our low level campaign is going to find an ancient text describing how to 'empower' his spells. The game is really only limited by your imagination.

Before trying C&C, our group gave several sessions to True20, but in the end we scrapped it because of the wounds system. Something about rolling for damage vs. making a toughness save. We all felt it was 'wonky'. The character creation system, however, is probably the best I have seen. We thought about adapting it to C&C; we still may in the future.

 

[naturaltwenty]

Meh - I bop around from games like a kid who's eaten all his chocolate on Easter morning. Right now the flavor of the day is C&C. My anecdotal evidence - I just helped sell nine (9) rulebooks. Each one of the players or potential players picked it up.

It's a good game to run. It allows me to use 20+ years of material with little to no conversion. It allows my players to not have to think about what they want to make at 1st level so by 15 they can shoot for whatever PrC flavor of the month is out in supplement 4544545545. I can use my miniatures and my battleboard. I pull out Dragon magazines that are curled with humidity and smell musty to use the Incantatrix. I can run players through UK2, UK3, UK4 and UK6 with no prep because I know them like the back of my hand but I no longer have to take 4 Monstrous compendiums, 8 Complete books, 3 core rulebooks, and scads of notes.

As a player I've got defined classes but am not shoehorned into a specific role. I can still say I want to "cleave" those three orcs and kill more than one thing at a time. I can still get an idea of what DC I need to hit.

It's whatever floats your boat. You make it what you want and your mind is at ease when you add or subtract something because you are now in control vs:

1) a perceived balance that all the +1 for Dexterity Bonus +5 AC for the chain shirt +2 for shield spell..oh wait that doesn't stack with that bonus -2 for prone +1 for having higher ground +3 favored enemy +6 because it's the second Tuesday of the month -8 for not giving the DM a mountain dew +1 due to the PrC errata that came out in the newsletter (yes I'm being faceitious)

or 2) referring back to the weapon speed chart and knowing what armor does vs. a Crushing/Piercing/Slashing weapon and 5/4 attacks for monks after 4th level + 2 ...err that a -2 because the armor class is lower and is that 9" movement indoors or outdoors, because you know there's a difference, and you roll a d6 for initiative and you need to roll high for the saving throw...or..is that low (yes being faceitious again).

Later,

Greg Volz