Try it in your game? Remove caster level.

[Dandu]

Note that your argument changed from "monks have low AC" to "monks do less damage". Nothing wrong with that, but did you concede that monks don't have to have (significantly) lower AC? (Your earlier post quoted below.)

Hassassin, context matters. The context was, iirc, that monks were MAD and thus could not have high AC while still dealing good damage and have enough HP.

But yes, I will say you don't have to have low AC. But do you concede that you cannot have good AC, good damage, and high hit points?

(I notice you had to choose between a Con boosting item and a Wis boosting item, so your monk has... 8+4.5*11+12*2 hit points, or 81.5 on average. This... is insufficient.)

The monsters you list have on average AC 25.

Your 12th level fighter with spiked chain deals 2d4 + 11 damage per hit. Assuming +20/+15/+10 attacks, that's an average of 27 damage per full attack, if my math holds.

My 12th level monk with flurry of blows deals 3d6 + 2 damage per hit. Assuming +15/+15/+15/+10 attacks, that an average of 22 damage.

A level 12 monk deals 2d6 damage per hit. 2d8 assuming Improved Natural Attack. This is not 3d6. At no point does a monk deal 3d6 damage with his fists according to the table. Your damage is actually 9 per hit on average. 11 if you use Improved Natural Attack.

It's cool. Everyone makes a typo now and tehn.

Sure, the monk deals 20% less damage. Does that really make him that much less of a threat that enemies can ignore him?

Hassassin, you have forgotten to factor in DR. The fighter deals an average of 16 damage per hit. The monk deals an average of 9 or 11 damage per hit.

Now, I believe I have mentioned CR 11 enemies. I will repost the list I had with commentary on how a monk who deals 11 damage on a hit, 87 HP, and AC 29 fares.

[sblock]Air Elemental, Elder - 204 HP. AC 27. AB of +27, 2d8+6 damage per attack, 2 slams in a full round attack. DR 10/-, whirlwind form, air mastery, elemental traits. You are not dealing significant damage to this.

Black Dragon, Adult - 199 HP. AC 27. AB of +24, with lots of natural attacks. I do not think you would like to be in melee with this one. Nor do I think 11 damage per hit - and you hit 45% of the time with an AB of 15 - is going to help much.

Blue Dragon, Young adult - 189 HP. AC 26. AB of +23, with lots of natural attacks. I do not think you would like to be in melee with this one. Nor do I think 11 damage per hit - and you hit 50% of the time with an AB of 15 - is going to help much.

Copper Dragon, Young adult - 161 HP. AC 25. AB of +20, with lots of natural attacks. Well, it's certainly weaker than the other two...

Cryohydra, Ten-Headed - 108 HP. AC 20. AB of +14, 1d10+5 damage per attack, 10 attack per round. Fast healing 20, darkvision 60 ft, low light vision, scent. On the plus side, it has to roll a 15 or greater to hit AC 29, and you can hit it on a 5 or higher. On the minus side, it has 10 attacks per round and fast healing. But at least Fast Healing isn't DR... and you have Evasion against its breath weapon.

Pyrohydra, Ten-Headed - same as above.

Hydra, Twelve-Headed - 129 HP. AC 22. AB of +17, 2d8+6 damage per attack, 12 attacks per round. Fast healing 22, darkvision 60 ft, low light vision, scent. Probably not going to go well. It hits AC 29 45% of the time, and with 12 attacks per round that... what, five attacks that hit AC 29? Average of 15 damage per attack... times five, that's 75 damage.

Demon, Hezrou - 138 HP. AC 23. AB of +14, bite deals 4d4+5 damage, two claws with an AB of +9 deal 1d8+2 damage each. DR 10/good, has Blasphemy as a spell like ability 3/day at CL 13. Low AB, but DR 10. Also, Blasphemy automatically renders a level 12 character blinded and deafened. Strikes me as a bad thing.

Devil, Barbed (Hamatula) - 126 HP. AC 29. AB 18, 2d6+6 damage each, 2 attacks on a full attack. DR 10/good, barbed defense (enemies striking a barbed devil without a reach weapon take 1d8+6 points of piercing damage). DR 10, automatically deals damage when a monk hits it, AC that requires the monk roll a 14 or higher to hit, an AB sufficient to hit AC 19 half the time, an average of 13 damage per it...
[/sblock]

Now, what happens when you fight an CR 12 enemy, like a Kolyarut, which has DR 10/Chaotic. The Kolyarut has 91 HP, fast healing 5, construct traits (immune to stunning), and Vampiric Touch as an attack. I think it safe to say that the monk is not even scratching it and can be ignored. A fighter, on the other hand, -gets 6 points of damage through - and here's the thing - with the option to Power Attack for more. Or he could try and trip the thing, which is a good debuff for melee enemies.

Not all enemies will be that hard, admittedly. The Greater Abyssal Baslisk has DR 10/Magic that can be overcome by the monk, and AC 17 meaning you can hit it easily. However, it also has 189 HP and a +25 melee attack that deals 2d8+10 damage. That's 19 damage per hit, and it hits on a 4 or higher. Still, you're at least dealing 11 damage to it. That's better than nothing.

Frost Worm; AC 18, but 147 HP. +21 bite, 2d8+12 damage, +1d8 cold damage. You'd probably do alright against this too. Well, at least you'd survive the death throes explosion.

Colossal Monstrous Scorpion; AC 26, 300 HP. On a full attack, it gets "2 claws +34 melee (2d8+12) and sting +29 melee (2d8+6 plus poison)". It also has the Constrict and Improved Grab special abilities. It has a grapple modifier of +58. I know monks are supposed to be good at grappling, but I doubt you would want to grapple with this thing.

Leonal: DR 10/evil. Again does Damage Reduction rear its ugly head.

Purple Worm: AC 19, 200 HP. Bite +25 for 2d8+12 damage. Full attack includes a +20 sting for 2d6+6 damage and poison. Improved Grab and Swallow Whole.

That's not all of the list. Feel free to search for CR 12 monsters of your own and ask yourself "How is the monk contributing to this situation adequately"?

Note that not all enemies even think about tactics, and would want to go past the monk to attack a mage.

That is true. Golems would not. But anything with an Int score of 8 or higher would probably be able to assess the situation better.

Also, relying on the enemy's incompetence is not an argument for the power of the monk. If you are only good when fighting dumb enemies...

If the party has a bard inspiring courage, the fighter's average damage increases to 29, while the monk's increases to 32. Buffs, debuffs and flanking have a similar effect of giving the monk's extra attacks an advantage.

I could make a Commoner powerful by Polymorphing him into a Hydra. Doesn't mean Commoner is a good class.

I understand that the fighter is better at fighting (duh), but that's how it should IMHO be. I again fail to see how the monk's weakness is so great as to make him totally useless.

Allow me to be brutally honest with you. You have high AC but you get in chip damage, and get hit most of the time anyways, which is a huge problem with your low HP. For comparison purposes consider that a wizard with 14 Con to start with and a +4 Amulet of Health has 4+2.5*11+12*4=79.5 hp on average, before using things like False Life. Being 8 hit points healthier than a squishy wizard is not what a melee class wants.

Alright, but as you mentioned, that's not entirely fair to the monk because he's so much more than just a melee class. Maybe he will do something else well that justifies the fact that he is worse than a Summon Monster spell. Sneaking? Well, you have stealth skills, but without trapfinding you won't be too useful there. Social skills? You have neither the Cha score for it nor can you spare the skill points.

The problem with the monk is while he can do several things, he cannot do them with anything approaching a degree of competence unlike a good support/5th wheel character like the Bard.

Look, do you want to run a few encounters with CR appropriate enemies? Find a CR 10 melee monster for your level 12 monk and see how he does?

Here's your monk, for the record.
[sblock]

For the fun of it I'll try:

28 point buy: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
At level 12: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8

I'm going to use only ~ the gold you used on AC and ability items and ignore the boots. (I'm not sure which direction I'd take this monk - I've never played one.)

Bracers of Armor +4 (16k)
Ring of Protection +2 (8k)
Ioun Stone (5k)
Gloves of Dex +4 (16k)
Periapt of Wis +4 (16k)

AC 29 (equal)
Touch 25 (11 more)
F-F 23 (5 less)

The monk will have 37 hp less on average (13 from hit die, 24 from Con), but has 24 hp worth Wholeness of Body. He'll hopefully take less damage due to better saves + Improved Evasion and other class features.

I'm not saying the monk will be the fighter's equal as a tank, but I don't think he'll be quite as hopeless as you seem to suggest.

[/sblock]

 

[PureGoldx58]

The monk jibber-jabber aside, Removing caster levels would make so many spells boring and make spell casters even more over-powered in that everyone would chose the broken spells that can't be harmed by this "nerf" and no one would go the fun route of creating blocks of solid ice that take up most of the battlefield.

Caster level affects more than just 1d6/caster level spells, it affects 10ft. square/level and range...etc. Not to mention dispelling would be even more improbable at later levels since things that spell out their caster level (monsters) would be at a higher caster level than players.

tl;dr: Your changes only annoy the less effective casters anyway, so don't bother.

 

[Dandu]

But don't you understand? Spellcasters who deal damage are teh borken because they step on the fighter's toes.

 

[PureGoldx58]

But don't you understand? Spellcasters who deal damage are teh borken because they step on the fighter's toes.

Can't compete with that logic, also nerf barbarians and rogues they do too much damage too.

 

[Dandu]

Can't compete with that logic.

You know what they say; Resistance is futile, if you can't beat them become assimilated.

 

[PureGoldx58]

You know what they say; Resistance is futile, if you can't beat them become assimilated.

“”We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.”?

 

[kitcik]

Sorry, but your comment OTOH doesn't say it all, or pretty much anything for that matter. Do you think I made mistakes?

I suggest you actually play a monk in an experienced group where the other players have tier 1/2 classes.

{lots of stuff I totally agree with.}

A level 12 monk deals 2d6 damage per hit. 2d8 assuming Improved Natural Attack. This is not 3d6. At no point does a monk deal 3d6 damage with his fists according to the table.

{a whole bunch more stuff I totally agree with.}

Err, look again at your table. Improved Natural Attack increases your effective size, not your monk level.

Level Damage
(Large Monk)
12th-15th 3d6

 

[Dandu]

Oh, so it does.