Trying to make 5e more oldish and want some people's opinions

Agree with the others about playing the straight rules for a bit first to see how it works and then figuring out what you like and how the changes will affect your gameplay.
If you are not happy with the shortrest/longrest times and overnight healing, I would suggest thinking about decoupling the healing aspects of short/long rests from the ability/spell regeneration aspects. So characters heal more slowly, but still get their spells and abilities back everyday. Anything that regenerates on a long rest, instead regenerates everyday. Short rest abilities could also regenerate at everyday, but get 2-3 times the number of uses per day. I'm just spitballing with the usage, it probably needs some tweaking (especially for warlocks). But it's just an example.
 

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Casters having to wait a week to recover spells isn't like any edition of AD&D that I've experienced; 'sleep to get back your spells' is extremely traditional. If you want to use that to make adventures progress slower it's a standard variant rule, and will result in a slower game based around an adventuring week instead of an adventuring day, which may work for you. But it's not going to make anyone think "oh, casters needing a week of rest to recover spells, that harkens back to classic versions of the game!"
I remember reading through an older edition - something older than 2E, at the very least - which gave a distinct impression that recovering spells was something which happened in between dungeons. It was definitely not the case where you could just hold up in one room, and sleep until morning, as overnight resting so-often devolves into.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
I remember reading through an older edition - something older than 2E, at the very least - which gave a distinct impression that recovering spells was something which happened in between dungeons. It was definitely not the case where you could just hold up in one room, and sleep until morning, as overnight resting so-often devolves into.

Not sure where you might have seen it (Basic D&D, perhaps?) -- in 1st edition AD&D, there was a period of rest (4 to 12 hours, depending on max level of spells) where you could sleep OR have light activity (no fighting or exploring), followed by 15 minutes of prep per level of spell regained. So, if you were a 2nd level caster regaining two 1st level spells, it was 4 hours of rest + 30 minutes of study. (I think they generously dropped that to 10 minutes per spell level in 2nd edition?) I always got a kick out of the idea that, a high level wizard would literally take DAYS to regain all his spells! (I seem to recall that a 29th level caster would take something like 72 hours of straight study to regain all his slots...)

EDIT: Sorry, that was 12 hours of rest and 33 hours of study, or more like 3 or 4 days worth of time assuming sleep!

https://www.frontiernet.net/~jamesstarlight/RegainingSpells.html
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Casters having to wait a week to recover spells isn't like any edition of AD&D that I've experienced; 'sleep to get back your spells' is extremely traditional. If you want to use that to make adventures progress slower it's a standard variant rule, and will result in a slower game based around an adventuring week instead of an adventuring day, which may work for you. But it's not going to make anyone think "oh, casters needing a week of rest to recover spells, that harkens back to classic versions of the game!"
Largely agreed. Overnight-plus-study/pray-time is and pretty much always has been the default for spell recovery, and changing this - while perhaps a daring idea - will have some major knock-on effects once you start play.

The proficiencies with a really limited number of weapons is a weird gamey thing that has never made a lick of sense. The idea that a warrior who spends his time training to use weapons would be adept at using a footman's mace but clueless using a slightly smaller horseman's version of the same weapon, or that he'd be good at using a full size spear but befuddled by a javelin. I urge you not to have things include like this in your game: "Oh, I see you're able to use a long sword and a broad sword, but you're completely befuddled by the slightly smaller short sword and scimitar, or by a dagger. You'll need to spend months training to learn to use them" or "Oh, you're good at using this long pole with an axe blade on the end, however what you've found is a long pole with an axe blade on the end AND a spike on the opposite side of the axe blade, it will take months to learn how this weapon works".
The answer here is variable non-proficiency penalties. If you're trained in spear you might only be -1 when using a javelin or other similar weapon, but -2 when using something completely different e.g. a battleaxe. And a non-fighter trying to use an untrained weapon is even worse off - -3, -4 or even -5 depending on class and-or difference in weapon used v weapon trained.

I very much like the idea of individual weapon proficiencies, reflecting the in-game notion that a fighter - while vaguely handy with any weapon hence their lower non-prof penalty - has his-her own particular weapon preferences, and those are what he-she has chosen to focus on.

The opposite way to achieve much the same result is by a weapon specialization system that gives bonuses with particular weapons chosen by the player/PC, but that way lies numbers bloat and power creep. Penalties are better.

The idea that someone with a dagger will have an initiative advantage over someone with a sword is another hilariously unrealistic artifact from old D&D. If you want to see this in action, make a couple of mock weapons out of dowel rod, pipe insulation, and electrical tape, then get someone to go outside and spar with you. The guy wielding a sword-length weapon is going to have a much easier time scoring hits than the guy with a dagger-length weapon, he clearly has the initiative both in terms of striking first and controlling the fight. If neither person is exceptionally more skilled or athletic than the other, then the dagger guy is just going to lose over and over again. Again, I urge you not to preserve unrealistic oddities from old game systems for the sake of preserving them.
The point of small-weapon initiative bonus is not to reflect who will usually strike harder or inflict more damage, but to reflect who will usually strike faster. Assuming vaguely-equal levels of skill, the person with the dagger will be able to pull of a couple of moves during the time it takes the sword person to wind up and swing...particularly if the dagger person can get inside the swordsperson's guard.

Critical failures implemented as 'if you roll a 1, bad stuff happens' are also weird gamey things that aren't part of traditional D&D. They bias the game towards casters over melee unless you also include critical spell failures
Spell fumble possibility is IMO essential in any such system, as are aiming rolls for ranged spells.

and have the really weird effect that better melee combatants, who get multiple attacks, end up hurting themselves with their weapons much more often.
The chance of messing up, when pushing the edge of one's skill, doesn't change much as the skill improves.

As an example - I'm not much of a typist by any means but I'm almost certainly better at it than I was 20 years ago, at least in terms of typing faster. My number of mistakes per line typed, however, probably hasn't changed much if any over that timespan - I just make those mistakes more frequently in clock time because I'm typing faster than I used to.

Same can be true of melee fighters.

Lan-"the backspace key is always the most important button on any keyboard"-efan
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Not sure where you might have seen it (Basic D&D, perhaps?) -- in 1st edition AD&D, there was a period of rest (4 to 12 hours, depending on max level of spells) where you could sleep OR have light activity (no fighting or exploring), followed by 15 minutes of prep per level of spell regained. So, if you were a 2nd level caster regaining two 1st level spells, it was 4 hours of rest + 30 minutes of study. (I think they generously dropped that to 10 minutes per spell level in 2nd edition?) I always got a kick out of the idea that, a high level wizard would literally take DAYS to regain all his spells! (I seem to recall that a 29th level caster would take something like 72 hours of straight study to regain all his slots...)

EDIT: Sorry, that was 12 hours of rest and 33 hours of study, or more like 3 or 4 days worth of time assuming sleep!

https://www.frontiernet.net/~jamesstarlight/RegainingSpells.html
This assumes, of course, that said wizard had gone through her entire load of spells the previous day, which at mid-high levels IME is extremely rare...they always keep something in reserve as a 'getaway car' or 'safety valve' that doesn't often get used, and in systems with hard-line spell memorization it's even rarer that they'd have pre-loaded exactly the spells they'd need that day.

We put a cap on the study/pray time such that it's 15 min per level or 8 hours, whichever is less.
 

JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
The chance of messing up, when pushing the edge of one's skill, doesn't change much as the skill improves.

Except that, mechanically, it DOES change as skill (level in this case) improves. A fighter who attacks once every round has a 1 critical fumble every 20 rounds. A fighter who attacks twice every round (most melee classes in 5e) will have 2 critical fumbles every 20 rounds. A fighter who attacks three times a round (monks and many martial classes who have feats) will have 3 critical fumbles every 20 rounds.

Having a static number that is a fumble penalizes any character rolling attack dice more often.

Now, if you have a hybrid system for fumbles beyond the static "rolling a 1" then you can mitigate this however then you are designing a game that goes against the simplicity of 5e design.

DS
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Except that, mechanically, it DOES change as skill (level in this case) improves. A fighter who attacks once every round has a 1 critical fumble every 20 rounds. A fighter who attacks twice every round (most melee classes in 5e) will have 2 critical fumbles every 20 rounds. A fighter who attacks three times a round (monks and many martial classes who have feats) will have 3 critical fumbles every 20 rounds.
Which is exactly what I said. The odds of fumbling per attack never change, but as those attacks come more frequently in clock time so in tandem do the screw-ups.

Rounds are game-speak for clock time.

The odds of fumbling on any given attack never change: 1 in 20 (or whatever frequency the table uses). That the attacks come more frequently for higher-level types doesn't change this.

That said, a step back to look at how many attacks it takes to finish a combat might say something. If at low level it takes on average a warrior 8 attacks to win a fight (each with a 1/20 fumble chance) but at high level it takes a warrior 16 attacks to win a fight (probably due to damage output not keeping up with opponent h.p. increase) then one could rightly state the high-level warrior's chance of fumbling over the course of a whole combat is higher - in this case exactly double. (and note the number of rounds this all takes is inconsequential in any case)

But if the number of attacks required to win a fight remains roughly the same as levels increase then so does the fumble chance per combat.
 

Was it?

I know in 1e the spell you got at level-up training was random. Did that not carry over into 2e? (I know that by 3e you could choose)
At least when I played 2E, you didn't automatically learn any new spells when you gained a level. If you were a level 5 wizard, but you never found any scrolls or captured any spellbooks, then you were still casting level 1 spells.

The ability to learn a spell automatically was restricted to specialist wizards, and was the primary benefit of specializing.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Which is exactly what I said. The odds of fumbling per attack never change, but as those attacks come more frequently in clock time so in tandem do the screw-ups.

Rounds are game-speak for clock time.

The odds of fumbling on any given attack never change: 1 in 20 (or whatever frequency the table uses). That the attacks come more frequently for higher-level types doesn't change this.

That said, a step back to look at how many attacks it takes to finish a combat might say something. If at low level it takes on average a warrior 8 attacks to win a fight (each with a 1/20 fumble chance) but at high level it takes a warrior 16 attacks to win a fight (probably due to damage output not keeping up with opponent h.p. increase) then one could rightly state the high-level warrior's chance of fumbling over the course of a whole combat is higher - in this case exactly double. (and note the number of rounds this all takes is inconsequential in any case)

But if the number of attacks required to win a fight remains roughly the same as levels increase then so does the fumble chance per combat.
In 30 seconds of combat, the highly skilled warrior has 4x the chance of maiming herself as the novice. Problem.
 

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