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Trying to make a game harsh, care to input?
- Thread starter malien
- Start date
Quick Leaf
First Post
long post
I remember reading about patron saints as a feat somewhere on EnWorld. I think that would be phenomonally cool! Some historic considerations about monotheism...Take Persia (Iran), where Zoroastrianism (ahura mazda is big god, many demons and divine beings fighting, good vs. evil, salvation in afterlife) is credited by many as first monotheistic religion. Zoroaster was a conquerer, and affiliated with many conquerers. The monotheism was an attempt to control religions that under previous rulership had been given wide berth. Often, many cults slipped through the cracks, such that it was never a purely monotheistic empire. This is typical of monotheism during pre-medieval times.
The main difference between mages and priests is...Mages are inheritors of a stolen gift, the ability to speak the divine tongue. Priests were taught to commune with the gods long ago, able to make requests in exchange for performing symbolic actions; priests do not speak the divine tongue (although there are some who do, thus straddling the fence). Priest magic is always based on ritual (While it may appear spontaneous to the player given your mechanics, it represents somethin which the character already knows). Anyone can learn to be a priest, you don't even need to have overwhelming faith, though that helps to start out. In fact, one of the main duties of priests is to teach simple protective measures for common people.
Mages disdain priests; after all, why barter with the gods when you can go straight to the source? Priests consider mages dangerous; only a fool presumes to be more powerful than the gods! Of course, this is somewhat of a double standard, since the priest is often motivated (entirely or in part) by learning the True Name of the gods. A portion of these True Names (every living being has one) was taught to the first circle of priests so that they could awaken the god's attention; this small bit of knowledge was a form of meditation whereby the priest visualized him or herself as the deity, or the deity's might entering their body. Having tasted what just one letter or syllable of the True Name can do, many priests want to learn more, hoping to control the gods themselves. There are cases where this has happened, usually ending with catastrophy, though not always.
About the only group of priests who don't dislike mages is The House of Life, whose goddess is said to have helped the First Mage steal the language of the gods (some accounts say she orchestrated it, and others claim she was tricked by a priest who was the mage's accomplice). The House of Life seeks to awaken the "gift" that mages have in all humanity. They are barely tolerated by the other orders, and walk a thin line.
For priest magic mechanics I never finished, but was thinking...
1. chose deity/saint to identify with (must have studied the first part of their true name)
2. roll on symbolic action table for the deity's demands
3. player explains spell effect & GM determines spell level (as per ArsMagica)
4. determine casting total
Total= Deity rank + Relevance + Explanation +Base cast bonus +WIS modifier +Holy symbol +Purity
Deity rank: not sure how this works...without an extra bonus, however, the casting becomes too difficult and guarantees you'll take fatigue unless the spell is very relevant...
Relevance has 3 levels:
Slightly (+5)-- one aspect of the deity relates, i.e. hunting a deer (anhur), or healing someone (Isis)
Moderate (+10)-- two aspects of deity relate, i.e. engaging in holy war (anhur), or healing a sick mother (Isis)
Very (+15)-- three aspects relate, i.e. hunting down enemies fleeing the battlefield (anhur), or divining the cure for a sick mother whose child will have the Gift (isis)
Explanation: Do the symbolic action and deity tie into the desired spell effect?
(-5) No, symbolic action ties into neither deity or effect
(+0) Symbolic action ties into either deity or the desired effect
(+5) Symbolic action ties into both deity and desired effect
BCB (Base cast bonus) is as per a hermetic mage of equal level
Holy symbol: does the priest have a holy symbol?
(-5) no symbol
(-1) unrelated symbol
(+1) related symbol
(+3) sign/statue of the deity/saint in question
(+5) enchanted/blessed sign/statue (must be ritually cleansed daily in holy water, and other reqs.)
(+10) access to a holy shrine (naos) of the deity/saint
Purity: many ancient traditions required this:
(-6) priest is filthy dirty
(-2) priest hasn't bathed for 1-7 days
(0) priest has bathed that day
(+2) priest has bathed in holy water that day
Casting total
equal or greater than spell level --- spell succeeds
equal or greater than spell level -20 --- spell succeeds, and caster takes fatigue subdual damage at 1d6 per 10 levels of spell
less than spell level -20 --- spell fails, and caster takes damage as above
EXAMPLE: Kherabt is a 3rd level priest with a 13 Wisdom (+1). Thus she has +9 BCB. Her friends are being chased by a horde of monsters, and she decides to cast a spell to help them. She chooses Osiris (she has a +10 deity rank) as her deity, and rolls the “Eating the scroll” symbolic action (means the consumption of knowledge). Now she describes her spell effect: A ghost from the underworld frightens the pursuing monsters so bad they forget what they’re doing. How does “Eating the scroll” tie in? The ghost devours the knowledge the monsters have of why they’re chasing the characters. She wields an ankh, symbol of eternal life. Her player argues that the ankh is a beacon for the ghost, promising eternal life, and the GM agrees it is a related holy symbol (+1). The GM gives the spell +5 for relevance (protecting the civilized characters and stopping the chaotic enemies of civilization – the monsters - relates to one aspect of Osiris), and +2 for the player’s explanation. Thus, the casting total is 5+9+10+1+2+1 = 28. The GM has determined that this is a 35th level spell (20 for erasing a short memory and 15 for fear...see ArM rules for clarification). Thus, Kherabt successfully casts the spell, but takes 3d6 subdual damage, putting her in real jeopardy.
Whew! I'd love some feedback on this priest too...
Cheers!
malien said:
I remember reading about patron saints as a feat somewhere on EnWorld. I think that would be phenomonally cool! Some historic considerations about monotheism...Take Persia (Iran), where Zoroastrianism (ahura mazda is big god, many demons and divine beings fighting, good vs. evil, salvation in afterlife) is credited by many as first monotheistic religion. Zoroaster was a conquerer, and affiliated with many conquerers. The monotheism was an attempt to control religions that under previous rulership had been given wide berth. Often, many cults slipped through the cracks, such that it was never a purely monotheistic empire. This is typical of monotheism during pre-medieval times.
malien said:
The main difference between mages and priests is...Mages are inheritors of a stolen gift, the ability to speak the divine tongue. Priests were taught to commune with the gods long ago, able to make requests in exchange for performing symbolic actions; priests do not speak the divine tongue (although there are some who do, thus straddling the fence). Priest magic is always based on ritual (While it may appear spontaneous to the player given your mechanics, it represents somethin which the character already knows). Anyone can learn to be a priest, you don't even need to have overwhelming faith, though that helps to start out. In fact, one of the main duties of priests is to teach simple protective measures for common people.
Mages disdain priests; after all, why barter with the gods when you can go straight to the source? Priests consider mages dangerous; only a fool presumes to be more powerful than the gods! Of course, this is somewhat of a double standard, since the priest is often motivated (entirely or in part) by learning the True Name of the gods. A portion of these True Names (every living being has one) was taught to the first circle of priests so that they could awaken the god's attention; this small bit of knowledge was a form of meditation whereby the priest visualized him or herself as the deity, or the deity's might entering their body. Having tasted what just one letter or syllable of the True Name can do, many priests want to learn more, hoping to control the gods themselves. There are cases where this has happened, usually ending with catastrophy, though not always.
About the only group of priests who don't dislike mages is The House of Life, whose goddess is said to have helped the First Mage steal the language of the gods (some accounts say she orchestrated it, and others claim she was tricked by a priest who was the mage's accomplice). The House of Life seeks to awaken the "gift" that mages have in all humanity. They are barely tolerated by the other orders, and walk a thin line.
For priest magic mechanics I never finished, but was thinking...
1. chose deity/saint to identify with (must have studied the first part of their true name)
2. roll on symbolic action table for the deity's demands
3. player explains spell effect & GM determines spell level (as per ArsMagica)
4. determine casting total
Total= Deity rank + Relevance + Explanation +Base cast bonus +WIS modifier +Holy symbol +Purity
Deity rank: not sure how this works...without an extra bonus, however, the casting becomes too difficult and guarantees you'll take fatigue unless the spell is very relevant...
Relevance has 3 levels:
Slightly (+5)-- one aspect of the deity relates, i.e. hunting a deer (anhur), or healing someone (Isis)
Moderate (+10)-- two aspects of deity relate, i.e. engaging in holy war (anhur), or healing a sick mother (Isis)
Very (+15)-- three aspects relate, i.e. hunting down enemies fleeing the battlefield (anhur), or divining the cure for a sick mother whose child will have the Gift (isis)
Explanation: Do the symbolic action and deity tie into the desired spell effect?
(-5) No, symbolic action ties into neither deity or effect
(+0) Symbolic action ties into either deity or the desired effect
(+5) Symbolic action ties into both deity and desired effect
BCB (Base cast bonus) is as per a hermetic mage of equal level
Holy symbol: does the priest have a holy symbol?
(-5) no symbol
(-1) unrelated symbol
(+1) related symbol
(+3) sign/statue of the deity/saint in question
(+5) enchanted/blessed sign/statue (must be ritually cleansed daily in holy water, and other reqs.)
(+10) access to a holy shrine (naos) of the deity/saint
Purity: many ancient traditions required this:
(-6) priest is filthy dirty
(-2) priest hasn't bathed for 1-7 days
(0) priest has bathed that day
(+2) priest has bathed in holy water that day
Casting total
equal or greater than spell level --- spell succeeds
equal or greater than spell level -20 --- spell succeeds, and caster takes fatigue subdual damage at 1d6 per 10 levels of spell
less than spell level -20 --- spell fails, and caster takes damage as above
EXAMPLE: Kherabt is a 3rd level priest with a 13 Wisdom (+1). Thus she has +9 BCB. Her friends are being chased by a horde of monsters, and she decides to cast a spell to help them. She chooses Osiris (she has a +10 deity rank) as her deity, and rolls the “Eating the scroll” symbolic action (means the consumption of knowledge). Now she describes her spell effect: A ghost from the underworld frightens the pursuing monsters so bad they forget what they’re doing. How does “Eating the scroll” tie in? The ghost devours the knowledge the monsters have of why they’re chasing the characters. She wields an ankh, symbol of eternal life. Her player argues that the ankh is a beacon for the ghost, promising eternal life, and the GM agrees it is a related holy symbol (+1). The GM gives the spell +5 for relevance (protecting the civilized characters and stopping the chaotic enemies of civilization – the monsters - relates to one aspect of Osiris), and +2 for the player’s explanation. Thus, the casting total is 5+9+10+1+2+1 = 28. The GM has determined that this is a 35th level spell (20 for erasing a short memory and 15 for fear...see ArM rules for clarification). Thus, Kherabt successfully casts the spell, but takes 3d6 subdual damage, putting her in real jeopardy.
Whew! I'd love some feedback on this priest too...
Cheers!
Quick Leaf
First Post
Quick additions...
for those who don't know egyptian myth, anhur's profile is war, hunt, and leadership, Isis's profile is healing, fertility, and magic. thought that'd help...
for those who don't know egyptian myth, anhur's profile is war, hunt, and leadership, Isis's profile is healing, fertility, and magic. thought that'd help...
Whitemage Bishieboy
First Post
quick leaf,some advice.remember KISS,any action that as its basis requires more than a few moments figureing it out should be scrapped.your magic system is far too complex.
onto the orginal poster,i suggest running call of cthulu or modern if you dont want powerful magic.without magic and monsters you dont have fantasy,or sword and sorcery.both of which d&d are.
onto the orginal poster,i suggest running call of cthulu or modern if you dont want powerful magic.without magic and monsters you dont have fantasy,or sword and sorcery.both of which d&d are.
Red Spire Press
First Post
*looks around in a bit of a sneaky fashion*
...
Dark Legacies may be just what you're looking for... It's not just low-magic in the sense that there are new magic rules, but the entire setting is adapted to a low-magic environment and tailor made for gritty and exhilarating play. There are new races, new classes, new skills, new feats, new arms & equipment upgrades, simple yet effective supplementary combat rules, new magic rules, entirely new mechanics for priests (which are, themselves, a new class), and plenty of grit & consequences for those who still wish to walk the dark road of magical practice (taint which can corrupt the caster over time, spell failure consequences, and demonic possession). Regarding religion, it takes a monotheistic, very institution-oriented approach with plenty of denominational and factional intrigue, which adds plenty of unique flavor.
*sneaks off*
psssttt... http://www.redspirepress.com
...
Dark Legacies may be just what you're looking for...
It's not just low-magic in the sense that there are new magic rules, but the entire setting is adapted to a low-magic environment and tailor made for gritty and exhilarating play. There are new races, new classes, new skills, new feats, new arms & equipment upgrades, simple yet effective supplementary combat rules, new magic rules, entirely new mechanics for priests (which are, themselves, a new class), and plenty of grit & consequences for those who still wish to walk the dark road of magical practice (taint which can corrupt the caster over time, spell failure consequences, and demonic possession). Regarding religion, it takes a monotheistic, very institution-oriented approach with plenty of denominational and factional intrigue, which adds plenty of unique flavor. *sneaks off*
psssttt... http://www.redspirepress.com
Last edited:
Thanks to everyone still keeping this thread alive. I still haven't started my game, so I am still contemplating various things. As for the suggestion to buying products... I'm sure there are some great things out there, with just what I want (also, I think Midnight just screams cool) but, I don't play at /all/ enough to warrant plunking down the cash to pick up products unless they're, like, secondhand. Even then, I'm sort of enjoying just bootlegging my own tweaks together.
Now, I think I want to use the Sanity rules in Unearthed Arcana... or maybe the taint rules. I'm so indecisive. But, what I would really love some ideas on is the idea of some sort of spellcasting chart. Basically, I need a mechanic to represent a roll a mage/priest makes when casting a spell. They need to roll a Spellcraft check (though what DC to make to cast a spell of what level, I don't yet know) and depending on how close they get to the DC they are supposed to roll, there are certain effects;
(this is by no means a final list, so suggestions are definately wanted)
Spell is cast optimally,
Spell is cast as normal,
Spell is cast with all numerical effects(dice roll results) halved,
Spell is cast with lowest numerical effects,
Spell fails to be cast,
Spell fails to be cast, mage incurs Insanity or Taint or whatever I end up using.
So, thoughts?
Now, I think I want to use the Sanity rules in Unearthed Arcana... or maybe the taint rules. I'm so indecisive. But, what I would really love some ideas on is the idea of some sort of spellcasting chart. Basically, I need a mechanic to represent a roll a mage/priest makes when casting a spell. They need to roll a Spellcraft check (though what DC to make to cast a spell of what level, I don't yet know) and depending on how close they get to the DC they are supposed to roll, there are certain effects;
(this is by no means a final list, so suggestions are definately wanted)
Spell is cast optimally,
Spell is cast as normal,
Spell is cast with all numerical effects(dice roll results) halved,
Spell is cast with lowest numerical effects,
Spell fails to be cast,
Spell fails to be cast, mage incurs Insanity or Taint or whatever I end up using.
So, thoughts?
Tilla the Hun (work)
First Post
malien said:
That's strangely close to a wild mage in 2e... In fact, your table 'duplicates' some of the effects of a wild surge when casting a spell...
Somebody around here could tell you the name of the book for 2e that had wild mages and the surge table therein will give you something like 50 - 100 results similar/identical to what you listed there...
Spellcraft DC to cast? Ouch. DC 5 + Spell Level? or 10, if you want grim, or 15 + spell level if you want spells to fail more often.
I'd recommend against the 'how close they come' gradient for use w/ your table... Keep the KISS concept in mind there. Why not simply base the effect off their spellcasting attribute modifier?
Priest/Cleric w/ a +3 to Wisdom looks up the +3 effect, and applies whenever he succeeds at his spellcraft check - it's always the same effect.
Or, if you want a -little- variation just for neat coolness factor - try this one for size:
Spellcasting modifer + 1d3 (or 1d6) - 1d3 (or 1d6) to determine line on chart/table to use for effect on spell.
Thus, they'll hit a -small- range of variations that they, as a player, can quickly learn (obviating the need to look them everytime, or calculate a new result everytime). Keep the range down to 5 to 10 variations, and the players can keep them straight every time, without spending time thinking about it
Also, they'll want to start with that 18, but 2 clerics (one wis 15, one wis 18) will swiftly find out that only the 18 can cast with the effect of X2 CLW on a lucky roll, and only the 15 will have the penalty of X1/2 available on an unlucky roll. (just an example of the effect doing same would have)
If your into tables/charts, create two - one for success, one for failure
Again, the smaller range means less fumbling/calculating/thinking about it after you've gotten used to the idea as a spellcaster, as well as providing considerable variation in the spell.FYI - Really look up that old wild mage book/table - it'll help you a _lot_ in generating those kinds of tables.
