Tumble from Prone...and old question, yet rarely discussed?

[kitcik]

but...changing rules to increase the enjoyment of the game is the DM's job!

I've been playing what Merric would 'allow', tumble 15 to stand up. this makes a 13th level monk very different at standing up than a 1st level dwarven cleric, so I like it. and everyone gets the 'chance' to avoid the aoo. These other fixes involve making special choices when gaining a level, etc., and I don't think that should be necessary (as others have said on this thread)

As a teen in the 80s who played both D&D and Squad Leader...it was often hard to switch mindsets. In the latter game, it is ALL rules, no bending, and indeed you felt the scenario wasn't quite as good if someone after the fact pointed out that you played some obscure rule incorrectly. Then, to AD&D where I had to sometimes drop that mindset, as the game was BETTER if tweaking a rule led to a better story.

I find I'm much more able to do this today as a DM, as I no longer play ASL...

I also played D&D and Squad Leader as a teen in the 80s.

A 13th level monk can easily have the 12 ranks in Tumble necessary for the "Back on Your Feet" skill trick, so can still be "very different" than a 1st level dwarven cleric under RAW, if they choose to practice that particular skill.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

That said, I agree whole-heartedly with your opening statement. So, if your group thinks it was broke and you fixed it - more power to you.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

any thoughts?

It is not a crime for a PC to be good at something. Let them tumble from prone. Your job as DM is to lose to the PC's. A LOT. FOREVER. I see no valid reason to disallow them to such a minor advantage as tumbling from prone.

 

[Water Bob]

any thoughts?

In the Conan RPG, there's a Combat Maneuver that could apply:

Kip Up

You flip back up to your feet froma prone position.

Action: Immediate
Prerequisite: Jump 5 ranks or Tumble 5 ranks, Mobility.
Circumstance: The character has just been knocked prone.
Effect: The character may immediately make a Jump or Tumble check (DC 20) as a reaction to having been knocked over. If successful, he immediately regains his footing. He still draws attacks of opportunity standing up.


This doesn't help your AoO problem (I know it's the main problem), but it does allow the character to keep his Move action, instead of spending it on standing up.

Something the character may want to instead is expressed in another Conan RPG combat maneuver. The character gets knocked down, and when the giant goes to attack the prone target, the character uses this maneuver:

Roll

You throw yourself to one side.

Action: Immediate
Circumstance: A character is prone and being attacked in melee.
Effect: A character makes a Tumble check against a DC equal to his foe's attack roll. If successful, he does not suffer the normal -4 penalty to Defenses for being prone.


Neither of these are perfect for your question in the OP, but maybe they'll help....or give you some ideas.

 

[kitcik]

It is not a crime for a PC to be good at something. Let them tumble from prone. Your job as DM is to lose to the PC's. A LOT. FOREVER. I see no valid reason to disallow them to such a minor advantage as tumbling from prone.

OK, so the DC 35 tumble check is now DC 15.

Might as well let them take a 10' step on a DC 20 rather than a DC 40.

Oh, and what the heck, let them ignore 20' of falling damage on a DC 10.

Heck, since you're supposed to lose anyway, you might as well let them automatically heal between encounters. Oh wait, that's 4E...

 

[olshanski]

OK, so the DC 35 tumble check is now DC 15.

Might as well let them take a 10' step on a DC 20 rather than a DC 40.

Oh, and what the heck, let them ignore 20' of falling damage on a DC 10.

Heck, since you're supposed to lose anyway, you might as well let them automatically heal between encounters. Oh wait, that's 4E...

I think you are missing a step:
Tumbling as a move action is DC15
Tumbling up from prone as a free action is DC35

There should be some middle ground of "tumbling up from prone as a move action" that would be somewhere between DC15 and DC35.

For those that would houserule a fair middle-step, the question is, "how much does being prone add to the DC, and how much does converting a move action to a free action add to the DC."

For myself, I consider the prone part to be +5 DC and the move-to-free part to be worth +15DC. Thus tumbling up from prone as a move action is DC20.

 

[kitcik]

I think you are missing a step:
Tumbling as a move action is DC15
Tumbling up from prone as a free action is DC35

There should be some middle ground of "tumbling up from prone as a move action" that would be somewhere between DC15 and DC35.

For those that would houserule a fair middle-step, the question is, "how much does being prone add to the DC, and how much does converting a move action to a free action add to the DC."

For myself, I consider the prone part to be +5 DC and the move-to-free part to be worth +15DC. Thus tumbling up from prone as a move action is DC20.

I agree with you, but I think you are missing something - or else I am misunderstanding.

The way I understand it is they are proposing to both MOVE and GET UP FROM PRONE as part of the same Tumble check. In other words, getting up from prone is just part of their Tumble movement. I would rule that moving as a Tumble is a move action DC 15, in order to ADD getting up from prone to this move action, you would need the DC 35 free action stand.

If you are saying that their entire move action is comprised of getting up from prone through a Tumble which does not provole AoO's, then I am fine with your DC 20 prop.

 

[olshanski]

You are absolutely correct. I was missing something.
I should have distinguished between tumbling to move and tumbling to stand up.
As you surmised, I was intending "tumble up from prone" to be just the standing-up part, and not moving x squares part.

 

[Wellby]

Yes, there is a distinction problem here...maybe. When I figured the monk simply summersaults away, then stands up, or some such, then I figured I would allow either simply standing up, OR a half move away from the prone square (and ending up standing), as equally difficult. But yes, at this point, one is really going off book...alas this IS D&D and not Squad Leader...thank god.

 

[kitcik]

An interesting sidenote from the FAQ:

"

Can a character use the Tumble skill from a prone
position? Specifically, if my character is prone, can he use
Tumble to move out of a threatened square without
provoking an attack of opportunity?​

According to a strict reading of the rules, no. The key
phrase in the Tumble skill description is this: “Tumble at onehalf
speed as part of normal movement. . . .” You can’t move
“normally” while prone, thus you can’t use Tumble in this
manner while prone.
The only “normal” movement allowed while prone is to
crawl 5 feet as a move action that provokes attacks of
opportunity. I don’t think it stretches the rules unreasonably to
allow a character to use Tumble while crawling, but since you
can’t crawl at half speed (half of 5 feet is less than a full
square), you’d have to take the –10 penalty on the Tumble
check for using accelerated tumbling. Thus, a character could
make a “crawling Tumble”—think of it as an “action roll” if
you prefer—to move 5 feet as a move action without provoking
attacks of opportunity; such an action would require a DC 15​

Tumble check with a –10 penalty."

 

[James the Newbie]

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] gave me this link, and I remembered this thread (all thanks should go to him)

Rules of the Game: All About Movement (Part Three)

It tells you at the bottom 'Tumbling While Crawling: Though the rules don't say so, there's no reason you can't can tumble 5 feet as a move action when prone. The check DC is 20.'

Thats a pretty conclusive yes you can.