Turns out honesty isn't always the best policy

[Bedrockgames]

Eh, I didn't object to anyone claiming that the behavior was immoral. Although, I maintain that, in a discussion, one should be prepared to say why a thing is immoral. Or at least be up front and say that something seems immoral, but that explaining why is difficult.

I very much was objecting to the statement that the behavior was unethical. While I don't myself have a problem with the rule that you proposed, I don't think that businesses, in general, follow this rule.

To use your example as given, if the cost of a drug were to increase from $100 to $500 a dose, say, because a natural source became extinct, and the alternative simply cost that much more to make, one would be very justified to increase the price a commensurate amount, even though the increase would have a huge impact.

In fairness, I do think I'm leaving out unstated assumptions of your statements. Yet, I think I'm fair to ask for those to be clarified. Those unstated assumptions and how they relate to the problem are a big part of what there is here to discuss.

Thx!
TomB

Can you clarify what you mean by ethics. The word has some variances in usage and I am unclear if you are limiting it to a ethics of the industry he belongs to, or if you are extending it to the wider society. to be clear, in my original usage I didn't use it to mean these things----I just used it to refer to a well founded or reasonable standard of behavior, not one merely based on a persons feelings or declared by a religion).

I also want to be clear the aim of your discussion. If you basically already agree that it is unethical but you just want to pull a reasoned and logical argument from me to verify that I can think or something, I am not going to play a long. If you genuinely think his behavior wasn't ethical, I'll happily continue the discussion and see if we can at least arrive at an understanding of each other's position by clarifying assumptions and refining points. But I am not going to participate if this is just a forum logic game for you, or about just about winning.

If we are going to have a discussion, lets start here: how do you define ethical?

 

[Umbran]

This is just misdirection though Squirrel. That is like when I was a kid and got caught doing something wrong, I'd list off all the things my sister was doing wrong as well and say it was unfair. Someone else doing something wrong as well and not getting enough attention doesn't mean you deserve less focus and punishment.

Dingdingding! We have a winner! An excellent way of putting it, sir!

The dude is responsible for his own actions, no matter what the industry as a whole may be doing.

I think we are also seeing the natural outgrowth of normal human social dynamics into the internet age - shame as applied through internet media.

 

[tomBitonti]

Can you clarify what you mean by ethics. The word has some variances in usage and I am unclear if you are limiting it to a ethics of the industry he belongs to, or if you are extending it to the wider society. to be clear, in my original usage I didn't use it to mean these things----I just used it to refer to a well founded or reasonable standard of behavior, not one merely based on a persons feelings or declared by a religion).

I also want to be clear the aim of your discussion. If you basically already agree that it is unethical but you just want to pull a reasoned and logical argument from me to verify that I can think or something, I am not going to play a long. If you genuinely think his behavior wasn't ethical, I'll happily continue the discussion and see if we can at least arrive at an understanding of each other's position by clarifying assumptions and refining points. But I am not going to participate if this is just a forum logic game for you, or about just about winning.

If we are going to have a discussion, lets start here: how do you define ethical?

I'm using these meanings:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ethical

Generally, I avoid the term, since it tends to add an unnecessary layer or is too hard to use precisely.

In the discussion, what I was reading seemed to be that the pricing was morally offensive but was described as unethical. The tie was confusing, so I was looking for additional clarifying comments. I was objecting to the leap from a sense of moral outrage to the description "unethical".

With a claim of unethical conduct, in the sense of behavior which does not conform to a "set of guiding principles", there ought to be a clear underlying principle which is not being followed.

It's not clear (to me) that the pricing actually violates an ethic for a supplier. Normally, a supplier is free to price a good as they see fit, and the market is supposed to cull bad pricing practices. There are particular features of this pricing (as identified in previous posts: effective monopoly*, zero or near zero possible substitution, necessary for life, exceptionally high markup) which are a part of the reasoning. We should make those features clear.

I do tend to agree that, while an egregious case, this is not a unique case. I think attention to the industry as a whole is very appropriate. A good measure of the outrage which is appearing for this case should be reserved for the industry. That is, the sentiment expressed when the thread was created fits the pricing case: The pricing is an example of what others have been doing, but in more obscure ways.

* You can avoid the monopoly if you are willing to break the law and purchase the drug from Canada or elsewhere.

Thx!
TomB

 

[Bedrockgames]

I'm using these meanings:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ethical

Generally, I avoid the term, since it tends to add an unnecessary layer or is too hard to use precisely.

In the discussion, what I was reading seemed to be that the pricing was morally offensive but was described as unethical. The tie was confusing, so I was looking for additional clarifying comments. I was objecting to the leap from a sense of moral outrage to the description "unethical".

With a claim of unethical conduct, in the sense of behavior which does not conform to a "set of guiding principles", there ought to be a clear underlying principle which is not being followed.

It's not clear (to me) that the pricing actually violates an ethic for a supplier. Normally, a supplier is free to price a good as they see fit, and the market is supposed to cull bad pricing practices. There are particular features of this pricing (as identified in previous posts: effective monopoly*, zero or near zero possible substitution, necessary for life, exceptionally high markup) which are a part of the reasoning. We should make those features clear.

I do tend to agree that, while an egregious case, this is not a unique case. I think attention to the industry as a whole is very appropriate. A good measure of the outrage which is appearing for this case should be reserved for the industry. That is, the sentiment expressed when the thread was created fits the pricing case: The pricing is an example of what others have been doing, but in more obscure ways.

* You can avoid the monopoly if you are willing to break the law and purchase the drug from Canada or elsewhere.

Thx!
TomB

I am still not clear, particularly since that is a very general definition you linked to. Do you limit ethics to professional ethical guidelines? (definition 2)

So if society has collectively decided it is immoral to unnecessarily price life saving drugs beyond the reach of patients in need, but the profession he belongs to has no such standard, you would consider his action to be ethical? Or do you treat ethics broadly but you simply want me to provide grounds for why I think this was an unethical act. I ask because in your response you seem to be shifting between an understanding of ethics as morals grounded in reason and as professional ethical guidelines.

 

[Ryujin]

I am still not clear, particularly since that is a very general definition you linked to. Do you limit ethics to professional ethical guidelines? (definition 2)

So if society has collectively decided it is immoral to unnecessarily price life saving drugs beyond the reach of patients in need, but the profession he belongs to has no such standard, you would consider his action to be ethical? Or do you treat ethics broadly but you simply want me to provide grounds for why I think this was an unethical act. I ask because in your response you seem to be shifting between an understanding of ethics as morals grounded in reason and as professional ethical guidelines.

I have a feeling that his behaviour would run afoul of the teachings in any MBA business ethics class. I suppose I could always ask a prof, the next time I'm working in our Faculty of Business.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I have a feeling that his behaviour would run afoul of the teachings in any MBA business ethics class. I suppose I could always ask a prof, the next time I'm working in our Faculty of Business.

I took one business ethics course in college, so I am no expert here, but I do recall ethical pricing being a topic and if memory serves this exact sort of scenario was the go to example for what not to do (raising prices on some essential service or life saving drug so they are barely affordable purely to make a profit). So I don't think it is a crazy idea but it was just one business ethics course. It also came up in Ethics. I am sure people with more expertise could weigh in though.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think we are also seeing the natural outgrowth of normal human social dynamics into the internet age - shame as applied through internet media.

I think this is a double edged sword. In this case, I think shame is warranted because we're talking about life saving medication for a drug the guy's company simply purchased the marketing rights to. I think shaming on the net can be harmful though and ought to be exercised with extreme caution. We have a long history of misusing shame as a species and I am reluctant to call upon its power both for fear of bringing harm and for fear of watering down its ability to alter behavior.

 

[Ryujin]

I took one business ethics course in college, so I am no expert here, but I do recall ethical pricing being a topic and if memory serves this exact sort of scenario was the go to example for what not to do (raising prices on some essential service or life saving drug so they are barely affordable purely to make a profit). So I don't think it is a crazy idea but it was just one business ethics course. It also came up in Ethics. I am sure people with more expertise could weigh in though.

I know that it's an issue in General Ethics, but I'm also pretty sure that it routinely comes up in Business Ethics classes. I've only had the former but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so..... In my tech position I get to have some good conversations with profs of various disciplines, while performing the work. It has come up in the past.

 

[tomBitonti]

I am still not clear, particularly since that is a very general definition you linked to. Do you limit ethics to professional ethical guidelines? (definition 2)

So if society has collectively decided it is immoral to unnecessarily price life saving drugs beyond the reach of patients in need, but the profession he belongs to has no such standard, you would consider his action to be ethical? Or do you treat ethics broadly but you simply want me to provide grounds for why I think this was an unethical act. I ask because in your response you seem to be shifting between an understanding of ethics as morals grounded in reason and as professional ethical guidelines.

My answer would be that the pricing was unethical to society but not to the profession.

But, my hesitance is less about that difference as it is about "ethical" being coupled with a well defined framework of rules, while "immoral" being more general. I'm also conflicted because I didn't think there *were* actual rules for businesses to counter-indicate the pricing. I'll accept that I'm simply wrong and such rules exists, as may be demonstrated as a followup to immediately preceding posts. I'd wager, though, that there are practical guidelines, rather than actual rules, more along the lines of "things not to do so to avoid regulatory scrutiny and to avoid a poisoned relationship with a market". I wouldn't consider rules of this sort to be a part of an ethical framework.

If there *are* clear ethical rules, then drug companies seem to have been breaking them quite a lot. The whole "necessary to fund research" seems to be overly applied to justify drug pricing.

Thx!
TomB

 

[Bedrockgames]

My answer would be that the pricing was unethical to society but not to the profession.

But, my hesitance is less about that difference as it is about "ethical" being coupled with a well defined framework of rules, while "immoral" being more general. I'm also conflicted because I didn't think there *were* actual rules for businesses to counter-indicate the pricing. I'll accept that I'm simply wrong and such rules exists, as may be demonstrated as a followup to immediately preceding posts. I'd wager, though, that there are practical guidelines, rather than actual rules, more along the lines of "things not to do so to avoid regulatory scrutiny and to avoid a poisoned relationship with a market". I wouldn't consider rules of this sort to be a part of an ethical framework.

If there *are* clear ethical rules, then drug companies seem to have been breaking them quite a lot. The whole "necessary to fund research" seems to be overly applied to justify drug pricing.

Thx!
TomB

I don't think rules and ethics are the same though. Ethics are about how people ought to conduct themselves, not necessarily about how they can conduct themselves. If you are just saying he didn't break any rules or laws, I think most folks are in agreement there. But pretty much everyone agrees, even business people I think who are routinely making similar calls about setting prices, that he ought not to have done this. Like I said before, I am no expert but when I took my business ethics course, the subject of ethical pricing came up and examples like this were used as almost cartoonish standards of what not to do. This is I think an example of supra competitive pricing, which is generally regarded as unethical.