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Two different perspectives on character concept

Do you prioritize "Who you are?" or "What can you do?" when you hear the term ch

  • I always think about beliefs, personalities, and internal conflicts first.

    Votes: 28 35.9%
  • I always first think about skills and powers when I first think about concept.

    Votes: 17 21.8%
  • I always think about both equally. Honestly, I do. No, really.

    Votes: 28 35.9%
  • You are way off base, and now I'm going to explain to you why.

    Votes: 5 6.4%

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I develop a mechanically interesting concept first, and come up with background justification after the fact. For example, I was recently making a Pathfinder character based around the Bodyguard feat, which let's you use Attacks of Opportunity to make aid another attempts on adjacent allies to boost their AC. I found a trait that gave me another +2 bonus to the aid another result, but the trait specified the character had been adopted by halflings.

Therefore, I took that as a hook for a human orphan character raised by halflings. Ultimately, I just like coming up with convoluted backstories to give a veener of justifiability to my mechanical decisions.
 

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MoutonRustique

Explorer
Well, look at it this way. I've got 15 votes for 'I think about both equally', the result I thought the most improbable, and I've got zero posts in this thread that lead me to think that anyone who choose that option actually does think about both equally. I think we are seeing a lot of votes for what people unconsciously think would be the answer that reflects on them most favorably. snip
While you may be correct - it is very dangerous to say : "most people are wrong, but I am right". It can be true, but should be said with great caution.

What I'm finding interesting in this thread is even the people who claim to prioritize WYA over WYCD seem to lack the language to even describe that choice, and invariably end up appealing to the language of WYCD (classes, feats, traits, flaws, skills, etc.) to describe what they mean. snip
Again, be careful as many of these terms are often something quite tangible as concepts to many people making them not WYCD but actually WYA - I've personally found it fairly common for people to be disappointed when the character could not perform (or performed too well) actions that were part of the character concept (or antithesis to it). That would indicate that they were building by WYA w/o paying much attention to the WYCD...

Note: I am referring to action in its broadest sense - talking to the king, holding court, dealing with merchants, swinging a sword, basically everything and anything one can do, attempt or talk about, is an action in this sense.

In D&D's case, this is even true of its technical jargon words like 'Evil', 'Good', 'Law' and 'Chaos' - a situation made worse by the fact that with no definitive guidelines TSR/WotC itself published over the years contradicting definitions that amounted to no more than their author's house rules/personal take on the matter. And that situation isn't helped by the fact that by itself, alignment is radically unable to define WYA. But even to the extent those jargon words are out there, they aren't showing up early in the discussion of what it means to have WYA as fundamental to your idea of concept.
I would argue that nothing by itself can ever define a personality - all words are clues that whittle away at the "infinite" possibilities making the picture clearer and clearer.

Also, that your preferred defining words are not prevalent may also be due to a "recent" general discarding of such terms precisely because they are so vague. There is also the "meta" consideration that alignment threads are often source of mod intervention and much bad blood -there has been a good deal of "training" done on these (and many other) boards that encourages avoiding the use of the terms. It is possible that their avoidance has become a bit of a "habit" (that is not the proper word I want... I want the word for : Lorsqu'une personne évite de prendre une action par habitude encouragée par des renforcements fréquents. I'm pretty sure there is one... damn.)

Lastly, in the specific case of alignment, that they (almost universally) used to be used to define a character was in part because of mechanical implications. The fact that the mechanical implications and the popularity of use dwindled at the same time could be read as suggesting that it was never, in fact, about WYA... (but as I, myself, and many others feel an obligation to point out : correlation does not equate causation.)

To concede a bit of what his behind this post, I think modern RPGs are a merger of two very different games - traditional wargaming as represented by the TSR parentage and theater/thespian games as might be used in improve theater or training in acting. Think of it as playing 'Whose Line is It Anyway?' and 'Advanced Squad Leader' at the same time. This thespian branch though is something that is largely added as an overlay on top the wargaming structure, probably out of remembrance of the simple 'let's pretend' games of childhood. It's worth wondering what RPG would look like if the father of RPGs wasn't a wargamer, but a thespian who started adding game mechanics as arbitration to the thespian games played by his acting troupe. I think we might have a similar range of games by this point, but we might have a whole different language set and perception as to what was 'mainline' in an RPG and what was a bit extreme and out there.
Possibly, but I very much doubt it. Such games as you mention (or versions of them) are ancient beyond belief; had they the kind of draw to the kind of people who like what we call RPGs, I am fairly convinced it would be as you ponder.

Final note and "disclaimer" : I am of the firm belief that IRL, who we are is what we do. There is no mind reading. All we can know of another is what we can perceive. Who we are to the world is what we do while in it. The "true fondamental nature of your deepest true thoughts and motivations" are irrelevant. This being said, I would urge all to not be so stupid as to limit the scope of what action means - if someone is doing something out of spite and lets it be perceived as such, it is not the same action as someone doing it out of kindness and lets it be perceived as such. All perceivable parameters are part of the action.

This is why I fail to see a proper disconnect as you seem to be insisting upon with WYCD and WYA - while I agree that this is a useful "catch phrase" which leads to a meaningful thought process, this process like all human thought, it is not a straight line from A to B; it is more like a multi-parametered continuous self-correcting feedbacked system. Like in many such multi-input systems, if the time difference between which is first and second is sufficiently small to be without impact on the end product, pinpointing which is the actual true, no, no, not that one, I know you want that one to be it for X and Y reasons, but you actually thought the other one first is without purpose.

I hope I have not offended.
 

Celebrim

Legend
While you may be correct - it is very dangerous to say : "most people are wrong, but I am right".

I don't think I said anything as trivial as that. You seem to repeat this problem throughout your response. You take something I say and instead of responding to that, you simplify what I said and then respond to it. You also seem to have a tendency to indicate contradiction, but then continue your discussion either with agreement or non-contradiction.

Again, be careful as many of these terms are often something quite tangible as concepts to many people making them not WYCD but actually WYA

This confusion on their part if present wouldn't undermine my point. For example, see my discussion in this thread regarding 'Warrior Mage'. It also wouldn't directly lead to the next confusion you describe in every case.

I've personally found it fairly common for people to be disappointed when the character could not perform (or performed too well) actions that were part of the character concept (or antithesis to it). That would indicate that they were building by WYA w/o paying much attention to the WYCD...

I've seen that happen before, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of the sort of mindsets that would lead to that in the thread.

I would argue that nothing by itself can ever define a personality - all words are clues that whittle away at the "infinite" possibilities making the picture clearer and clearer.

While I agree that no one axis can ever define a character short of a stereotype, personality isn't the same as character.

Also, that your preferred defining words...

Wait, what?? I haven't even suggested what my preferred language for WYA would be. I'm not even sure I've established what it would be to my own satisfaction. In any event, even if we ignore this confusion on your part, I don't agree that they are vague, nor do I agree that they are generally discarded (though some certainly do), nor do I think that you have a clue what I was getting to by mentioning them. Even though it is a trivial example, deciding what alignment to play before deciding on a class would be an example of prioritizing WYA over WYCD. You wouldn't necessarily know anything more about the character than knowing the character's dexterity would let you know WYCD, but it would at least be a marker of WYA rather than WYCD. The usefulness of the marker is irrelevant to the discussion.

And in any event, where did I ever indicate that alignment can define a personality or even by itself character? What are you contradicting here?

I also disagree with you regarding the primacy of WYCD over WYA in terms of alignment as a marker, but I really don't want to get sidetracked into an alignment argument. Suffice to say that while alignment means a certain amount of both, I think the text of the early versions at least indicates its meant to stand for some element of WYA and its usefulness as a mechanical marker in the setting is somewhat secondary. I agree however that someone could look at a WYA marker and choose it primarily for WYCD reasons - choosing evil alignment in order to rebuke undead, for example - but that doesn't contradict my claim that WYA tends to not be prioritized.

Possibly, but I very much doubt it. Such games as you mention (or versions of them) are ancient beyond belief; had they the kind of draw to the kind of people who like what we call RPGs, I am fairly convinced it would be as you ponder.

I'm afraid there is a language barrier here, in that I don't understand what you are getting at. I don't know where to link all the pronouns and other references in those clauses in order to have a firm idea of what you are trying to say.

Final note and "disclaimer" : I am of the firm belief that IRL, who we are is what we do.

I think you are misunderstanding both WYA and WYCD in this context. I agree that WYA cannot be distinguished from what you have chosen to do, although really a discussion of what is moral and how we judge it is outside the intended scope of this thread. WYA is not only your morality, and WYCD doesn't necessarily have strong implications in who you are. They are related, but hardly strongly. If you can juggle or play tennis or paint, it doesn't necessarily tell us anything about WYA whether morality or personality or anything else. It doesn't even tell us that you like those things - you might have been forced to learn them by a domineering guardian, or you might just be naturally dexterous. Learning to juggle doesn't necessarily carry the sort of freight you are putting on "what we do", but its definitely part of WYCD.

Now of course, there are things that you do that do tell us a lot about you. If you have shot your best friend in the back on purpose simply for some monetary gain, that tells us something about WYA. But it also tells us relatively little about WYCD and it would be a mistake to think it did. For the purposes of WYCD, it matters more whether you can hit a target with a rifle from 400 meters reliably or only 4. WYCD is about how effective you are, not about your choices (though obviously, if you know you are effective or not, it might inform your choices). Still, what the target is and why you are shooting at isn't really a big part of WYCD. It would be a mistake to move from the fact that you are a skilled marksmen to thinking that tells us a lot of about WYA.

I hope I have not offended.

No, of course not.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Well, look at it this way. I've got 15 votes for 'I think about both equally', the result I thought the most improbable, and I've got zero posts in this thread that lead me to think that anyone who choose that option actually does think about both equally. I think we are seeing a lot of votes for what people unconsciously think would be the answer that reflects on them most favorably. Props to you for honestly choosing the answer that most people are going to assume reflects on them most unfavorably. (As if I was judging them or something.)

Hint: If you don't want people to think you are judging, don't insinuate they are being dishonest (even unconsciously) in their answers.

If you won't trust their statements, they shouldn't trust yours. For example, that attempt to state that you *aren't* judging? Why, when you just passed judgement on their honesty, should anyone believe that?
 

Celebrim

Legend
Hint: If you don't want people to think you are judging, don't insinuate they are being dishonest (even unconsciously) in their answers.

No, gosh, no. Don't get me wrong. I am judging peoples statements. And I am asserting (it's not much of an insinuation) that I don't think all the poll answers are reliable. I don't expect them to think otherwise about those points.

If you won't trust their statements, they shouldn't trust yours.

They should judgment my statements by whatever standards they think are appropriate. I expect but do not demand charitable attempts at understanding, but I do not expect that people wouldn't use their discernment and judgment when reading my words. That would be essential for actual understanding. It's rather silly to think that its possible not to be judged in that sense.

For example, that attempt to state that you *aren't* judging?

I'm sorry you found that unclear, but by that aside I meant that I wasn't going to judge the person (as a bad person) regardless of the answer they gave to the poll. If you say, "Heck yes, I prioritize WYCD", I'm not going to make the judgment, "Well, that makes you a bad RPer." If you say, "I always work out WYA", I'm not going to the make the judgment, "Well then, you are a member of the class of good persons." I'm going to inevitably be judging the statements people make, but in doing so they shouldn't think I'm passing judgment on them - least of all over a matter that is ultimately trivial.

Nonetheless, I think it inevitable that, in the larger context of how WYA/WYCD is generally presented in the RP community that people will think that WYCD is the 'wrong' answer, and WYA is the 'right' one. This was true well before the context I provided in my original post. And I hesitated to even put the 'both' option in the table, because I knew in doing so I'd only heighten the probability of unconscious bias even more. The more 'sophisticated' answer is invariably going be more appealing.

This isn't even really contentious. There are plenty of studies on polling and how people emotionally respond to different choices.

But even if that was unclear (or is still unclear), the entire logic of your statement falls apart on inspection because it doesn't have a logical cause and effect. Your assertion would imply that people were fudging the answers they gave to a poll based on a statement that wouldn't be made until after people answered the poll! The statement that I thought not all of the answers were fully reflective couldn't possibly have influenced the answers given prior to that point. Until I revealed my suspicion of bias, how could my suspicion of bias been influencing the polling?

I don't care in the slightest if people think that I am judging. So long as they don't mistake my thinking about poll answers implies some condemnation on them generally, or even that I'm suggesting there is only One True Gaming and that is WYA.

But ok, maybe you could assert my original post was judgmental. Fine, but to the extent that the post passes judgment on anyone, it passes judgment not on the players but on the game designers for having lagged in their techniques for WYA over WCYD. And I'd certainly fall under that condemnation, soft though it would be, myself, as I've done no better. And in any event, I didn't see a lot of people taking umbrage at the wording of the original post. I only got two 'you are way off base' votes, and none of those said, "You biased the freaking poll you judgmental monster!"
 

MoutonRustique

Explorer
I don't think I said anything as trivial as that. You seem to repeat this problem throughout your response. You take something I say and instead of responding to that, you simplify what I said and then respond to it. You also seem to have a tendency to indicate contradiction, but then continue your discussion either with agreement or non-contradiction.
We have different understandings of the weight to give to different words. When you say that people do not understand the vote they took, you are, in effect, saying : they are wrong about what they do. It is not a terrible thing, and I did not mean to challenge; I simply called out what I perceived hoping it could serve.

When I call out contradiction and continue w/o addressing it is because it was simply a call out. The reason for which is stated latter on.

This confusion on their part if present wouldn't undermine my point. For example, see my discussion in this thread regarding 'Warrior Mage'. It also wouldn't directly lead to the next confusion you describe in every case.
That's what I'm trying to call out : it may not be confusion on their part.

Of course, if the definitions of WYA and WYCD which are yours are shared by them, you are correct.

Wait, what?? I haven't even suggested what my preferred language for WYA would be. I'm not even sure I've established what it would be to my own satisfaction. In any event, even if we ignore this confusion on your part, I don't agree that they are vague, nor do I agree that they are generally discarded (though some certainly do), nor do I think that you have a clue what I was getting to by mentioning them. Even though it is a trivial example, deciding what alignment to play before deciding on a class would be an example of prioritizing WYA over WYCD. You wouldn't necessarily know anything more about the character than knowing the character's dexterity would let you know WYCD, but it would at least be a marker of WYA rather than WYCD. The usefulness of the marker is irrelevant to the discussion.
I say preferred language in the context of the post : since I offered that other words which you claim are WYCD have WYA value, the alignment words are the words which you prefer be used to describe WYA over the words which you say are WYCD. In this context preferred refers only to this discussion and not to "the words you yourself actually prefer to be used for this out of all words that exist".

There were a few sets of words mentioned : "mechanical" and alignement among them. Of the two sets, you seemed to feel that alignment words were better descriptors of WYA. That was my meaning behind "preferred".

And in any event, where did I ever indicate that alignment can define a personality or even by itself character? What are you contradicting here?
I was not contradicting you, I was adding precisions I thought were pertinent.

[1]I also disagree with you regarding the primacy of WYCD over WYA in terms of alignment as a marker, but I really don't want to get sidetracked into an alignment argument. Suffice to say that while alignment means a certain amount of both, I think the text of the early versions at least indicates its meant to stand for some element of WYA and its usefulness as a mechanical marker in the setting is somewhat secondary. I agree however that someone [2]could look at a WYA marker and choose it primarily for WYCD reasons - choosing evil alignment in order to rebuke undead, for example - but that doesn't contradict my claim that WYA tends to not be prioritized.
[1]Ah ha! It seems we have found common words! :D But then again... :p When you speak of primacy as a marker that is exactly my point (the whole of it in fact - the entire post was this and one other).

I am proposing that the balance of primacy is different for many people. As such, when some people use words which some find firmly in the WYCD camp, they are using them as WYA (and the other way around!)

The whole of my point was that people may use a different approach to WYA which others can perceive as WYCD. The use of the words themselves are not a definitive tell; one needs to engage with the user to know what aspect of the word is being used.

A classic example would be : "I want to play a knight!" There are MANY possible layers of meaning here : do they want to play a character with the knight class? If they refer to the "archetype", to which parts of it are they referring to? Are they of those who have most of their knowledge come from a certain line of novels and see themselves as an extension of a pre-existing character?

The "strength" of WYA over WYCD (and vice-versa) of a term is a very hard thing to define without a great deal of shared knowledge.

[2]I was offering the possibility that it was never about WYA and that its simultaneous decline of use with its mechanical applications might lend credence to this possibility. With regards to contradicting you directly, that was not my goal. My purpose was to, in effect, move the goal posts. While this is often an invalid way to win arguments, my goal is the shifting of the goal posts - so in this case, shifting the goal posts isn't shifting the goal posts. :)

The language of the text books does give WYA weight to alignment choice, but many other things in the books make it a mechanical restriction or requirement - in many ways it is an excellent example of WYA as WYCD and vice-versa. As such, when a sheet read "good", that was indication of WYA over WYCD or the other way around without asking the player the initial reason for the choice. A very plausible reason could be both : I want to play a knight charged with holy (in the sense of good) power for his deep belief in the goodness of the human heart. Perhaps you see a first here, but I see simultaneity. There are mounds of both WYA and WYCD here.

I'm afraid there is a language barrier here, in that I don't understand what you are getting at. I don't know where to link all the pronouns and other references in those clauses in order to have a firm idea of what you are trying to say.
That may entirely be my fault... I'll "deconstruct" my phrase here - my hope is that you may tell where I made my error(s), not "yelling it slowly at an imbecile" (I'm specifying because w/o the non-verbal cues, the two are remarkably similar...)

Possibly, but I very much doubt it. Such games as you mention (or versions of them) are ancient beyond belief[1]; had they the kind of draw to the kind of people who like what we call RPGs[2], I am fairly convinced it would be as you ponder[3].

[1] The free form, improved-based games which you referred to (who's line, etc) have been around for a good long while.

[2] If these kinds of games were as enjoyable to the many different kind of people who play RPGs as a whole and had an equal or greater appeal as the RPGs that have been popular.

[3] If the two previous statements were true, I believe the RPG market would be along the lines you presented. Since it is not, I believe at least one of the two above statements are false.

I think you are misunderstanding both WYA and WYCD in this context.
I know, but I am flipping it on you also - your understanding may be flawed. In truth, the question I wish to raise (for that is my wish, not to contradict and "prove you wrong") is: are you certain you have the shared understanding of WYA and WYCD? Even if so, is there another valid interpretation?

I agree that WYA cannot be distinguished from what you have chosen to do, although really a discussion of what is moral and how we judge it is outside the intended scope of this thread. WYA is not only your morality, and [1]WYCD doesn't necessarily have strong implications in who you are. They are related, but hardly strongly. snip
[1]On this point, I could not disagree more (I believe they are strongly related). But such is the price of not having a shared mind.

An example for my side of the fence on this (if you see this being possible, feel free to share how) : An easily-slighted, outgoing, friendly person if you have abysmal social skills. I feel the world would have beat you into something different.

Precisions : here easily-slighted, outgoing, friendly fall into WYA while abysmal social skills is WYCD.

Also, I will readily admit that much "non-effective"* aspects of WYA can be built w/o WYCD at all.
*What I mean here relates back to my position that something that has no bearing does not, effectively, exist. If pages and pages of descriptive WYA has no bearing on the actions you take, it is not WYA - but that is more philosophy than anything else. :blush:

In the end, I am arguing about the fluidity of the scale that goes from WYA and WYCD - and the relative and unknown value of concepts that we assume are shared.

Note: If I appear to repeat myself, it is because I did. I understand that we are having a hard time finding common understanding in the words we use; as such, I've repeated myself using different phrasings in the hopes of making my meaning less ambiguous - it is not meant as a slight. It is actually a tell of my weakness at expression : were I better, it would not be required.

Also, not all your points are responded to. This is not meant as a slight, simply a consequence of time and efficiency I do not have. I have responded to what allowed me to re-affirm what I hope to be my main points, your other points and ideas are not deemed invalid for their silence.
 

Celebrim

Legend
We have different understandings of the weight to give to different words. When you say that people do not understand the vote they took, you are, in effect, saying : they are wrong about what they do.

Wrong is one of those funny words like judge which can depending on the context carry or not carry a normative evaluation. Let's just say that I don't think that every vote was fully thought out. Some people voted in error. So long as you understand 'wrong' to carry no judgment of the worth of the person, then yes they were quite possibly 'wrong'. This is indeed not a terrible thing. People are often wrong. Indeed, I may be wrong and it is likely that at least in some cases I'm wrong. I definitely keep that possibility open.

For example, I would have guessed what the most popular answer would be, it wouldn't have been "I do both in equal measure." That's an inherently difficult thing for a human mind to do, and its particularly difficult because the answer here doesn't merely mean, "I do first one, then I spend an equal amount of time thinking about the other." It means rather I do both first! Color me skeptical. I'm not sure I've met the RPer in 30 years of play of which I could say that. I've worked with a lot of players on character approval, and I can't think of one that actually did both in equal measure right from the start. Much more typical is to see some sort of refinement process where the player either starts with WYA or WYCD, and then after getting one or the other mostly worked out, works out the other on that basis and then after that goes back and starts refining the initial conception.

Apparently, I was wrong. I don't think however I'm wrong about why the most popular answer is something I didn't expect and don't observe from my past experiences. No one has in fact outlined a thought process that could fairly be called, "Both first." In fact, most people in explaining their process generally described WYCD first, regardless of what they called it.

Still, I may reassess that with further data.

That's what I'm trying to call out : it may not be confusion on their part.

No, if you are using the language of classes, traits, abilities, and so forth you are using the language of WYCD. That's not confusion on my part and I'm prepared to defend that. If you say something like, "I prioritize WYA. First I choose a concept like strong fighter, then I begin choosing feats that enhance that.", you've clearly stated to me that you don't know what WYA even is in this context. Strong fighter is WYCD, and to the extent that you confuse the two its likely because you've so strongly absorbed certain stereotypes about how WYCD implies WYA, that you don't think about them or question them.

Of course, if the definitions of WYA and WYCD which are yours are shared by them, you are correct.

Well, this is why I tried to begin by defining my terms.

I say preferred language in the context of the post : since I offered that other words which you claim are WYCD have WYA value, the alignment words are the words which you prefer be used to describe WYA over the words which you say are WYCD. In this context preferred refers only to this discussion and not to "the words you yourself actually prefer to be used for this out of all words that exist".

Ok, that's clearer.

There are cases where game systems try hard to mechanically describe WYA, and in those cases the mechanics are actually mechanics primarily of WYA and not WYCD. Pendragon is IMO the premier example here, although just about every system has some bits and pieces of mechanics that are primarily WYA. D&D has alignment. WoD has natures and demeanors. Certain advantages and disadvantages (but certainly not all of them) fall into WYA rather than WCYD - 'curious' for example is primarily WYA rather than WCYD. Many Forge inspired games will have a Relationship with a mechanical value, where relationships are primarily WYA. This isn't to say that a player might not take various WYA features primarily from a mechanical 'what can this do for me' perspective, but to the extent that they do it wouldn't prove that they were either prioritizing WYA or even thinking about them equally. If you take 'curious' primarily for the 10 build points it gives you, that is NOT thinking about WYA and WCYD equally.

As such, when some people use words which some find firmly in the WYCD camp, they are using them as WYA (and the other way around!)

Ok, here is that word again. They are wrong.

If you say something like 'Warrior Mage' is a marker of WYA, you are just wrong. To the extent that you think that it is a marker of 'who you are', what you are really doing is saying, "All warrior mages fall into this common categorization regarding who they are. They have a common personality and set of beliefs." But you would be wrong. You are just accepting the stereotype. 'Warrior mage' is pretty much independent of WYA. It's on a fully different axis. When you use words like that to describe WYA, you've made the definitive tell.

A classic example would be : "I want to play a knight!" There are MANY possible layers of meaning here : do they want to play a character with the knight class? If they refer to the "archetype", to which parts of it are they referring to? Are they of those who have most of their knowledge come from a certain line of novels and see themselves as an extension of a pre-existing character?

I agree that 'knight' is going to offer very little information in and of itself, for a couple of reasons, and that it is an excellent example of your point. First, because I'd have very different expectations about what a person meant if they were from Sweden, England, or the USA - each of which carries a very different understanding of 'knight'. But on the other hand, only a very small percentage of those meanings carry any real WYA weight, and only those that involve importing stereotypes of a person who takes his knighthood very seriously so that it is a defining aspect of their personality. My strong suspicion here is that, regardless of whether we quibble over whether that is WYA first, or WCYD first, or something of both (hypothetically all possible), the overwhelming majority of cases will be proof that people never think deeply of WYA because they think it is enough to say, "I want to be an [archetypal] knight.", and that to them as far as they are concerned says everything you need to know about both WCYD and WYA and after that its just a matter of figuring out the details of WCYD.

I was offering the possibility that it was never about WYA and that its simultaneous decline of use with its mechanical applications might lend credence to this possibility.

I've been in enough alignment arguments to have encountered that opinion. I agree that its possible to discount alignment as WYA. I don't agree that that is the intention.

As such, when a sheet read "good", that was indication of WYA over WYCD or the other way around without asking the player the initial reason for the choice.

You are correct. That's why I've posed the question in the way I did. What did you think about first? I can't tell post-hoc what had primacy, but I can tell what had primacy if I observe the process by which the parts were assembled. Most players choose alignment as one of the last things that they choose. Most players fill out the character sheet and then give thought to the background. Most players establish the profession and skills, and then worry about the quirks and personalities. They do this I think because most game systems present things in that order. Even the ones that encourage you to see WYA and WYCD as being mechanically the same and could easily avert this, tend to in practice produce a lot more, "Deadly ninja skills" and "Crack shot" than they do "It's not my life to give." or "'Harm no one; do as you will' are words to live by."

A very plausible reason could be both : I want to play a knight charged with holy (in the sense of good) power for his deep belief in the goodness of the human heart. Perhaps you see a first here, but I see simultaneity. There are mounds of both WYA and WYCD here.

"I believe people are basically good." is WYA. "I'm charged with holy power." is WYCD. The two are not really related, in the sense that a character could have one and not the other. I'm not surprised you see simultaneity, because you are seeing a certain archetype. That does in fact bring you along a lot of baggage including some WYA (but less who you are than what), and some of which is you the real person's baggage (what you believe is deserving of receiving power, what you see as holy), but even looking at the way you wrote your sentence, WYCD has priority. The WYA is the back story, the explanation, in that little character concept. The emphasis is on the WYCD. It's the subject of the sentence. It's the first part. You could have wrote it as, "I want to play someone who has a deep belief in the goodness of the human heart, and so he becomes a knight charged with holy power." If you did write it that way, I think you'd see why the putting the WYA first calls into question the concept and its assumptions far more than the reverse. Someone who really believes deeply in people's goodness, is unlikely to see warrior as a first vocation. There is an oddity present here not present in WYCD comes first, when you are putting on the archetype and not exploring WYA nearly as much as you are exploring WYCD (all those thoughts of armor wearing, horse riding, righteous avenging).

Possibly, but I very much doubt it. Such games as you mention (or versions of them) are ancient beyond belief[1]; had they the kind of draw to the kind of people who like what we call RPGs[2], I am fairly convinced it would be as you ponder[3].

[1] The free form, improved-based games which you referred to (who's line, etc) have been around for a good long while.

[2] If these kinds of games were as enjoyable to the many different kind of people who play RPGs as a whole and had an equal or greater appeal as the RPGs that have been popular.

[3] If the two previous statements were true, I believe the RPG market would be along the lines you presented. Since it is not, I believe at least one of the two above statements are false.

I don't think your logical table holds up.

The innovation of an RPG was to take a free form game and systematize it. Actually, that's an oversimplification. The real innovation was taking a system and making it more free form. But once that revolution happened, once there was one instance to draw from, that sort of thing is the sort of things that appeals to and naturally occurs to wargamers, since they are used to systematically abstracting things in order to simulate them as a game. Improvisational theater games are ancient, but in adults they are almost entirely abandoned after about the age of 12. After that, it's really only a small community of actors - and not all of them, who would be familiar with a theater game as a formal activity. Neither the bulk of young role players nor the actors practicing improvisation are likely to think of the idea of formalizing, systematizing, and abstracting the elements of play. Improvisational theater doesn't generally deal with the central conflict that the wargamer has to resolve: "In the event of a contest, who wins?" And the psychiatric community that was interested in role-playing, where interested in very different sorts of techniques for practicing conflict resolution than a typical RPG. Ancient though they may be, it took the RPG community to even innovate conflict resolution as much as playing rock-paper-scissors to resolve the outcome of such play, instead of relying on dramatic instincts.

Just because this was what was on the market, doesn't mean that the market for other fare doesn't exist. Right from the start, D&D and its immediate children were criticized for focusing too much on WCYD and not WYA. C&S was an almost immediate response to this. Within a few years we start seeing RPGs with a very different focus of play than a table top wargame. It's not necessarily the case that because a person doesn't like Call of Duty, that they don't like video games. There is a market out there for WYA focused play, and even in WCYD focused play, I think there is a desire for more WYA elements to play.

And yes, I think a lot of people whatever they do in chargen would like play itself to be a harmonious blend of them both.

An example for my side of the fence on this (if you see this being possible, feel free to share how) : An easily-slighted, outgoing, friendly person if you have abysmal social skills. I feel the world would have beat you into something different.

Sure. I've actually met easily-slighted, outgoing, friendly people with abysmal social skills. That is a certain sort of obnoxiousness that is almost a trope - the person that is just a little too eager to be your friend, just a little too loud, just a little too much into your personal space, just a little to intimate, who is rude when they mean to be funny, and insulting when they mean to be flirtatious and when rebuffed retaliates by angrily denouncing the person. As a theater game, you could easily write set the scene and assign the character as a part.

In the end, the world just about never beats the WYA out of anyone. Most people don't change. Many people just can't learn. Most of the time they don't realize they need to change, and wouldn't know what to do if they did. Fundamental character runs deep and habits are just about impossible to break. Change is the surprising result! The repetition can go on for years and years. It's the epiphany we write stories about precisely because it is the interesting and unusual event.

Of course WYA has bearing on the actions you take. If you have pages of WYA and it doesn't inform the actions that the character takes, then you WYA is wrong. Your character is something completely different than you described. But WYCD isn't nearly as tightly bound to the actions you take. People regularly choose to take actions that are completely ineffectual. Conversely, they can build effectual skills that are fairly trivial and without having a meaningful epiphany. "He's a good poker player" doesn't have to tell us anything about who a person is. It might suggest something about the person, and in the context of a game setting where stereotypes are often the building blocks of a character probably 99% of the time those first thoughts are accurate. But reality is far more messy.
 
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ShadowDenizen

Explorer
"Well, I'm interested in exploring the idea of an elf with their inherent long life and view point, in the context of how the march of history can create cultural divisions. I think it is interesting how in elves, one generation might be growing up two centuries or more after another. And I'm interested in exploring the concept of 'feralness' in the context of increasing urbanity and increasing civilization. What does an elf whose ecosystem has stopped being a wild forest become flagstone, tile and slate look like? I'm also interested because this seems like a good opportunity, in exploring and trying to personify 'Chaotic Neutral' as a truly intellectual and philosophical position, rather than simply being treated as 'random' or 'zany' or 'chaotic evil lite' as I've so often seen. So put that all together, and basically I'm thinking of playing this elfish street kid, the gang member if you will, with longstanding place in a thieves guild who has seen generations of human thieves come and go, and who is now finally outgrowing being a petty criminal and wondering what more there could be to the world. He has this elfish, and highly romanticized view of crime, where he sees the goal of crime as an artistic one and he wants to transcend the bad art around him and create something beautiful and worthy of song. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but I think ideally that we'd be looking whether he ends up a hero or a villain or somewhere in between. I'm looking to find ways where I can apply the notion of theft in abstract ways so that it has an unexpected meaning, like 'stealing a country', 'stealing memory', 'stealing truth', or 'stealing a myth' or something like that. Ideally though I'd like to be surprised by how this turns out rather than plotting it."

Now, equally I could have also said, "I'm playing a CN Elven Thief/M-U."

Though I would like to see another few sentecnes appended to it, the second example is not INHERENTLY inferior to the first, IMO. Sometimes brevity is an underrated commodity, epsecially since D+D is a "Team" game, and evetryone wants an wequal share of the "Spotlight".

When I initally create a character, I'm just as likely to be inspired by a CONCEPT ("I want to play a female dwarf who's been exiled from her clan for trying to create peace with the neighboring goblin nations!"), as I am by a SKILL/POWER ("I want to play a character who can Shieldbash REALLY WELL.") Then I try to mesh both sides into a cohesive whole, while still leaving room for the campaign itself to dictacte [to a degree] how my character grows over the levels.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Though I would like to see another few sentecnes appended to it, the second example is not INHERENTLY inferior to the first, IMO.

No, it's not. In fact there are a few things about it that are superior.

Sometimes brevity is an underrated commodity...

But that's not one of them. The description only looks brief because its composed of pointers. The actual description is composed of the rules for being a thief, an elf, a M-U, CN, and the rest of the details on the character sheet. One of the things I was thinking about before posting was the utility of having language for an equally complex set of WYA attributes as part of our gaming language.
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
Well, when I voted for "I look at them equally" what I mean, is that sometimes I look at WYA issues in creating a character concept first, and sometimes I look at WCYD issues in creating a concept - I don't necessarily always pursue one or the other first, it really depends on what concept grabs me at the moment I decide to create a new character. I'm not saying I look at both at the same time, it is either one or the other, but I don't hold one as more important than the other as they are equal from my POV. Really whatever happens to grab me at the moment I'm developing a new character is the one I choose to develop first.

Sometimes I want to create a PC based on some unique mechanical aspect, like I want a gunfighter that incorporates magic in combat, so after I create a custom magus archetype to accomodate that mechanic, then I build the PC on those mechanics, after which I decide WYA.

Sometimes I want to create a PC based on a person's backstory and past experiences, selection of beliefs, goals in life, one's psychological makeup, then I decide what mechanical choices to make and WCYD.

I don't place a priority on one or the other, I see them equally and separate, that's why I stated "apples and oranges" further up thread. Eventually you'll need to make a "fruit salad" by mixing the two and making connections as one concept, but in their development, I treat them separately and equally.

So I stand by my vote, and consider your suggestion that I and others somehow are being dishonest in our views in this poll as blantantly false.
 
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