D&D 5E Two Weapon Fighting

[The Grassy Gnoll]

I wasn't trying to be patronising, I was trying to show clarification.

I may have misunderstood your intent, but have not resorted to "L2R" style childish comments. However, you want maths, ok.

One extra attack
RAW: (2d6+2*mod)+(1d6+mod)
+1 Mod: (7+2)+(3.5+1) = 13.5
+2 Mod: (7+4)+(3.5+2) = 16.5
+3 Mod: (7+6)+(3.5+3) = 19.5
+4 Mod: (7+8)+(3.5+4) = 22.5
Your House Rule: (2d6+2*mod)+(2d6)
+1 Mod: (7+2)+(7) = 16 (extra 2.5 over RAW)
+2 Mod: (7+4)+(7) = 18 (extra 1.5 over RAW)
+3 Mod: (7+6)+(7) = 20 (extra 0.5 over RAW)
+4 Mod: (7+8)+(7) = 22 (0.5 below RAW)

Two extra attacks
RAW: (3d6+3*mod)+(1d6+mod)
+1 Mod: (10.5+3)+(3.5+1) = 18
+2 Mod: (10.5+6)+(3.5+2) = 22
+3 Mod: (10.5+9)+(3.5+3) = 26
+4 Mod: (10.5+12)+(3.5+4) = 30
Your House Rule: (3d6+3*mod)+(3d6)
+1 Mod: (10.5+3)+(10.5) = 24 (extra 6 over RAW)
+2 Mod: (10.5+6)+(10.5) = 27 (extra 5 over RAW)
+3 Mod: (10.5+9)+(10.5) = 30 (extra 4 over RAW)
+4 Mod: (10.5+12)+(10.5) = 33 (extra 3 over RAW)

Three extra attacks
RAW: (4d6+4*mod)+(1d6+mod)
+1 Mod: (14+4)+(3.5+1) = 22.5
+2 Mod: (14+8)+(3.5+2) = 27.5
+3 Mod: (14+12)+(3.5+3) = 32.5
+4 Mod: (14+16)+(3.5+4) = 37.5
Your House Rule: (4d6+4*mod)+(4d6)
+1 Mod: (14+4)+(14) = 32 (extra 9.5 over RAW)
+2 Mod: (14+8)+(14) = 36 (extra 8.5 over RAW)
+3 Mod: (14+12)+(14) = 40 (extra 7.5 over RAW)
+4 Mod: (14+16)+(14) = 44 (extra 6.5 over RAW)

In all but one case your house rule increases damage. It's not too bad at only 5th level with one extra attack, but it starts to accelerate a lot as you go up to more extra attacks, regardless of your mod (though your model flattens in regards to mods somewhat).

Plus, with every extra attack roll made there are extra opportunities to Crit or have on-hit effects.

A house rule should scale right up through the levels to work well IMO. Based on the maths here, it is consistently OP especially as you rise in level).
It's not for me, especially for a thread where the TWF Fighting Style wasn't the question, but TWF for anyone, through the rules on p195.

 

[Yunru]

Ah but that's the point: TWF rapidly falls behind in damage to the point of being made redundant by a feat: It needs the power boost.

Also I've calmed down now.
Observe, I'll compare the original TWF (with two scimitars for 1d6 each), GWF (with a 2d6 greatsword), Dueling (with a 1d8 raiper), and my TWF. Both in terms of average damage and their % increase over not having a fighting style (with the same weapons as if they had a fighting style). Mods per attack are assumed to be +3 at 1, +4 at 2, and +5 at 3+.

Number of Attacks	oTWF	%	GWF	%	Dueling	%	nTWF	%
1	13	30	11.3	13	9.5	26.7	10	0
2	22.5	21.6	24.7	10.9	21	23.5	22	18.9
3	29	20.8	40	11.1	34.5	21.1	36	41.2
4	37.5	15.4	53.3	11.1	46	21.1	48	41.2

In hindsight maybe it should just allow you to make 2 attacks with your bonus action.

 

[bid]

In all but one case your house rule increases damage.

You should have compared it to greatsword. I think you'd get the same damage every time.

Of course, that level of damage is a very bad idea:
- the god-stat Dex does as much damage as Str (before feats and GWM)
- all damage riders are doubled (improved smite, hex, et al.)

 

[Yunru]

Changing it to a flat 2 attacks for a bonus action gives:

Number of Attacks	oTWF	%	GWF	%	Dueling	%	nTWF	%
1	13	30	11.3	13	9.5	26.7	13.5	35
2	22.5	21.6	24.7	10.9	21	23.5	22	18.9
3	29	20.8	40	11.1	34.5	21.1	32.5	12.1
4	37.5	15.4	53.3	11.1	46	21.1	41	9.3

Which is frankly too weak. TWF should beat out Dueling. After all, with Dueling you can wield a shield for increase AC, or have a hand free for spells, grappling, etc.

With the extra attack applying, TWF with two scimitars matches an unboosted greatsword, but hits twice as much. The downside to that, however, is that it requires a bonus action to do so, and two separate weapons - bad luck if you only pick up one magical one.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

TWF is more for rogues. The twf style is just badly balanced in my opinion as you deal quite a lot damage early and fall back later.
Maybe swapping the feat and the fighting style would be a good idea with a little rebalance.

Fighting style twf
-Your main hand may be any one handed weapon. Your off hand still needs to be light. (I hate dual big swords or rapier)
- if you use a dagger or hand axe in the off hand and you are not wearing heavy armor, you get a +1 bonus to AC.
- you may draw two weapons with your free object interaction.
So this way, a str based character still has some advantages.

You can rewrite the first point to allow non light off hand weapons and the second point to: if your off-hand weapon is light, you gain a +1 bonus to AC if you have less problems with two big swords.

- The twf style feat could now be: you may add dex bonus to attacks with the off-hand weapon.
- You may use ranged weapons with the light property to make your off-hand attack.
- you may draw throwing weapons as ammunition.

 

[FrogReaver]

On yunrus house rule: id cap it at 2 bonus action attacks and make it cost a feat. Seems fairly balanced at that point to me. Though it could cause issues with rogue multiclasses.

Fighter rogue splits would become even stronger...

 

[Yunru]

On yunrus house rule: id cap it at 2 bonus action attacks and make it cost a feat. Seems fairly balanced at that point to me. Though it could cause issues with rogue multiclasses.

Fighter rogue splits would become even stronger...

Ran those numbers, unless you're running on-hit bonuses, Dueling still outclasses it, let alone if it were made a feat.

 

[mellored]

On yunrus house rule: id cap it at 2 bonus action attacks and make it cost a feat. Seems fairly balanced at that point to me. Though it could cause issues with rogue multiclasses.

Fighter rogue splits would become even stronger...

You can probably just tack it onto the dual wielding feat.

i.e.

• You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
• You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren’t light.
• You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
• When you TWF, you can make a second attack with your off-hand weapon.

 

[Umbran]

As for being rude...

This is a bit old, but bears mentioning.

Yes, you're being rude. Time to tone down the disdain several notches, Yunru.

On EN World, we expect you to show respect to your fellow posters, even if you don't agree with them. Being a jerk about things does not make you more correct, and in fact makes it look like you have to be a bit of a bully to be seen as correct. If you find you really can't manage to show respect for someone, we expect you to disengage, rather than stink up the place with rhetoric that'll make it a contest of egos, rather than an intelligent conversation between two people.

So, going forward, play nice, please. Thanks.

 

[Yunru]

This is a bit old, but bears mentioning.

Yes, you're being rude. Time to tone down the disdain several notches, Yunru.

On EN World, we expect you to show respect to your fellow posters, even if you don't agree with them. Being a jerk about things does not make you more correct, and in fact makes it look like you have to be a bit of a bully to be seen as correct. If you find you really can't manage to show respect for someone, we expect you to disengage, rather than stink up the place with rhetoric that'll make it a contest of egos, rather than an intelligent conversation between two people.

So, going forward, play nice, please. Thanks.

It was a simple misunderstanding of intents, which then got clarified. Sure I could edit it post-clarity, but then the further poosts don't make sense.