UA Battle Sorcerer another step... Stealth Sorcerer?

[Merlion]

Why play a rogue? Well, in all reality, the PHB rogue is basically designed as a combat machine with a skill backdrop. In my personal opinion I am not a fan of the currently rogue. For example, why would a Fence or a Second Story Man or a Cracker, etc. be trained in Sneak Attack? Not all, and in fact very few, rogue archetypes would be trained in the specialized slaying style of sneak attacks. Yet the core rogue is an assassination machine. Everything else is basically secondary. The only reason the rogue gets so many skill points is because there are SO many skills that make up the arena of the rogue.

It's essentially a ranger toolkit, which can be used to create the standard D&D ranger, or variations on that theme (always a nature warrior of some sort, but with options like no spellcasting, favored terrain, etc.). The same principle applied to the rogue would be a neat thing to see.

I tend to agree with all this. All rogue stuff should be handled like their higher level abilities...the rogue should be a blank slate, with various abilities to choose from. As it is you do often end up with excess features that dont really match whatever your doing.

Why not priest? Why couldn’t a sorcerer be involved I a priesthood without having to be a cleric?

Because honestly I feel that "priest" should be entirely a cultural/roleplaying role in no way linked to a class or classes. Largely because trying to create any sort of Priest type class that can really fit in with any/all religions is very hard (I have one floating around on here, but even its not perfect).

it seems to me that a god of war would have fighters, barbarians etc as its "priests", a deity of stealth, trickery etc would have rogues and bards, a god of magic would have wizards and sorcerers etc.


I just dont really like the priest as a class archtype, or the divine/arcane divide in magic, or the overall obessesion in standard DnD with "divine" stuff, religion, and polytheistic deities.

But thats just me.

As for Nature it would likely revolve around an animal companion instead familiar, wild empathy, gaining Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (nature) Listen, Spot and Survival as class skills, and 4 skill points. (Maybe animal or plant domain instead of wild empathy?)

I'd say animal companion. And you'd almost have to have a themed spell list...but you'd also risk treading on the Druid. I personally already see the druid as a "nature mage". So it would require great care.


Actually I think the sorcerer/monk/aesthetic thing is probably the most interesting, least problematic additional possibility.

 

[Khaalis]

Hail. Thanks again for the comments. It is helping me set some ideas in my mind for alternatives to offer the sorcerer for variation and creativity.

I think the revision is a lot more mechanically sound. It makes me think of the class as a bridge between rogue and bard, which isn't a bad thing at all.

This is good. It is, in a way, a bridge – at least in mechanics.

/rant on
I personally have a huge beef with the Bard as one of the absolutely worst written classes in the game. Personally I feel that the Bard is crap as currently written. It cant decide What its purpose or its class function is. The concept of a Bard is a sound foundation, but I honestly think that the implementation is poorly done. As it exists it is more like the Dev team tried to cram a jack-of-all-trades idea into a core class rather than developing an archetype of the Bard from history or even fiction. The Marshal class is actually better thought out than the bard, though it focuses only on one aspect of what a Bard could be. I am still toying with ideas to make the Bard more closely related to what the archetype should be, but with the current mechanics available, I have trouble doing so – though I am leaning toward using the Marshal template or more likely molding the Bard into something more akin to a Psionic class.
There is also though fact of picking which type of Bard archetype to follow. The herald, the skald, etc. Also bards of various cultures are vastly different from one another. Anyway… that’s for another thread…
/rant off

I also agree with some of what you said about trying to build different types of rogue, and the reasons why that'd be a good thing. It's tough to take that too far without needing to play a game other than D&D, but I think AEG's Mercenaries did it perfectly with their mercenary ranger class.
It's essentially a ranger toolkit, which can be used to create the standard D&D ranger, or variations on that theme (always a nature warrior of some sort, but with options like no spellcasting, favored terrain, etc.). The same principle applied to the rogue would be a neat thing to see.

I tend to agree with all this. All rogue stuff should be handled like their higher level abilities...the rogue should be a blank slate, with various abilities to choose from. As it is you do often end up with excess features that dont really match whatever your doing.

In actuality, in my revamp of the core class system, I have done this with ALL classes (except the Sorcerer which is only partially tookit).

For example, here is the Rogue table…

[b]	Base
Class	Attack		SAVES
Level	Bonus	Fort	Ref	Will	Special[/b]
1	+0	+0	+2	+0	2 Rogue Abilities
2	+1	+0	+3	+0	Rogue Ability
3	+2	+1	+3	+1	2 Rogue Abilities
4	+3	+1	+4	+1	Rogue Ability
5	+3	+1	+4	+1	Rogue Ability
6	+4	+2	+5	+2	Rogue Ability
7	+5	+2	+5	+2	Rogue Ability
8	+6	+2	+6	+2	Rogue Ability
9	+6	+3	+6	+3	Rogue Ability
10	+7	+3	+7	+3	2 Rogue Abilities
11	+8	+3	+7	+3	Rogue Ability
12	+9	+4	+8	+4	Rogue Ability
13	+9	+4	+8	+4	Rogue Ability
14	+10	+4	+9	+4	Rogue Ability
15	+11	+5	+9	+5	2 Rogue Abilities
16	+12	+5	+10	+5	Rogue Ability
17	+12	+5	+10	+5	Rogue Ability
18	+13	+6	+11	+6	Rogue Ability
19	+14	+6	+11	+6	Rogue Ability
20	+15	+6	+12	+6	Rogue Ability

The Rogue can then choose the archetype of rogue they are seeking to build and mold their abilities to that. For example if they want to train in Sneak Attack but not specialize in it, they can acquire only as much knowledge as they want in it.

Sneak Attack (Ex): The Rogue has trained in the specific tactics required to strike vital areas of an unaware target in such a way as to cause extra damage. This is the ability listed in the Player’s Handbook and follows all of the standard Sneak Attack rules. The ability actually can be taken as 10 different abilities, taken in stages over the Rogue’s career.
To achieve each level of Sneak Attack, in addition to the listed requirements, the Rogue must also have a minimum number of ranks in Knowledge (Physiology) as the level of Sneak Attack they wish to achieve. (Thus a Rogue wishing to take Sneak Attack III, must have at least 3 ranks in Knowledge (Physiology).)
Note: This is an additional class skill for rogues.
Sneak Attack I: When the Rogue takes this ability, it begins as Sneak Attack I. This ability grants +1d6 damage on sneak attacks.
Sneak Attack II: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +2 or higher and has Sneak Attack I, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +2d6.
Sneak Attack III: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +3 or higher and has Sneak Attack II, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +3d6.
ETC ON OUT TO…
Sneak Attack X: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +14 or higher and has Sneak Attack IX, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +10d6.

Some other non-typical abilities are:

Fighting Rogue…
Blaze of Glory (Ex): If the Rogue has a Base Attack of +10 or more, they may, once per day as a standard action adopt a base attack bonus equal to a Fighter of their character level. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to their Charisma modifier, but the rogue is fatigued for an equal number of rounds after using this ability.

Dual Weapon Technique (Ex): If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +4 or higher as well as having 6 ranks or more in Balance and a Dexterity score of at least 14, and when wearing light or no armor, they may fight with two weapons as if they had the feat Two-Weapon Fighting. This bonus is not gained when a Rogue is penalized their dexterity modifier, when they wear medium or heavy armor.

Wilderness Rogue…
Camouflage (Ex): If the rogue has 10 or more ranks in Hide and Survival, they may hide in any natural terrain even when without cover or concealment.

Woodland Stride (Ex): If the rogue has 10 or more ranks in both Move Silently and Survival, they may move through natural ground covered terrain (shrubs, thorns, etc.), at their normal speed and without suffering damage or other impairment. This does not provide protection from enchanted or magically manipulated areas.

Bounty/Investigator Rogue…
Urban Tracking (Ex): The rogue may take the Urban Tracking ability from the Unearthed Arcana (p.56) as a bonus feat.

They are also open to a Wide Range of Bonus feats such as Stealthy, Deft Strike, Agile, Negotiator, Fleet of Foot, Track, etc. etc. rather than being locked into the Sneak-Assassin of the core class.


In the sorcerer I am trying to present archetype changes akin to the Battle Sorcerer as an overall template to the core concept, allowing their to be more variation from sorcerer to sorcerer.

Because honestly I feel that "priest" should be entirely a cultural/roleplaying role in no way linked to a class or classes. [snip]
I just dont really like the priest as a class archtype, or the divine/arcane divide in magic, or the overall obessesion in standard DnD with "divine" stuff, religion, and polytheistic deities. But thats just me.

I can respect that, but I am currently working under the umbrella of working within the system’s constraints. Currently Clerics are a necessary and core part of the D&D system. Within that confine, the idea of a sorcerous priest could exist if someone wanted it to.

I'd say animal companion. And you'd almost have to have a themed spell list...but you'd also risk treading on the Druid. I personally already see the druid as a "nature mage". So it would require great care.

As for the sorcerer treading on the druid this is very unlikely. The druid still retains all of their class abilities that a sorcerer would never have such as the defining class ability of Wild Shape, not to mention all of the various other abilities such as immunities, etc.

Currently for a Nature Sorcerer I am leaning toward…

Benefits:
* Gain Intermediate BAB
* Gain new class skills: Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Spot and Survival, and 4 skill points
* Gain Druid Spell list in addition to Sorcerer spell list
* Gain Animal Companion instead of Familiar
* Gain Light Armor Proficiency feat
* Gain ability to cast in Light armor at no Arcane Spell Failure

Costs:
* Reduce spell slots by 1 per spell level
* Reduce spells known by 1 per spell level

Actually I think the sorcerer/monk/aesthetic thing is probably the most interesting, least problematic additional possibility.

It is an interesting idea though very hard to attempt. There is far too much involved in the “Monk” class to manage this crossing easily without writing a whole new class such as the Arcane Monk from AEG’s MAGIC or some of the various Monk/Arcane crossover PrCs.

The closest would be this very tiny tweak to the Battle Sorcerer…

Unarmed Sorcerer
Benefits:
* Increase HD from d4 to d8
* Increase BAB to Intermediate
* Gain new class skills: Balance, Diplomacy, Knowledge (religion), Tumble
* Gain Improved Unarmed Combat feat
* Gain Light Armor Proficiency feat
* Gain ability to cast in Light armor at no Arcane Spell Failure

Costs:
* Reduce spell slots by 1 per spell level
* Reduce spells known by 1 per spell level

Then optimal spell choices become Touch attack and Buffing spells.


Thoughts?

 

[Merlion]

Currently Clerics are a necessary and core part of the D&D system

Not really. One could say that a class with strong healing is a neccesary part of the system, but it doesnt have to be the Cleric, or a Priest type (in fact since only gods of healing would have such priests, it probably really shouldnt be).

Within that confine, the idea of a sorcerous priest could exist if someone wanted it to.

Well, like I said I am reluctant to call it a sorcerous "priest". But what you presented, a sorcerer with Domains, could certainly work as a sorcerer with a deep connection to a religion or the like.

Although like I said me, i could see "priest" as some sort of feat or template that could be added to any class, depending on religion.

As for the sorcerer treading on the druid this is very unlikely. The druid still retains all of their class abilities that a sorcerer would never have such as the defining class ability of Wild Shape, not to mention all of the various other abilities such as immunities, etc.

Currently for a Nature Sorcerer I am leaning toward…

I tend to think of spellcasters being defined primarily by their spell lists. A Druid's other abilities are mostly icing on the cake (and also partly to make up for the overall limited usefulness of the druid spell list, compared to many of the others).

So, I would have issue with having the "nature sorcerer" have full access to the Druid list. I would add in a few certain Druid spells, probably increasing some of them in level. Otherwise the nature sorcerer could become just as good a nature-caster as the druid, or nearly so (especially since Sorcerers already have access to a number of elemental and energy type spells that druids do not).

Aside from that though, your nature sorcerer looks fine...although as I said to me on a taste level, the idea is somewhat redundant, mostly because I dont look at things along the arcane/divine line. To me the Druid already is the "nature mage".


As for the Monk-sorcerer thing, your right it is rather diffacult. I was thinking in terms of some of the class abilities...immunities and the like...but that along with a combat ability bump would probably be too much.


I cant really think of any other overall class-mesh concepts...only spellcasting specializations really.

I suppose one could have a combination of the battle sorcerer and the "priest" thing for a sort of paladin-sorcerer...but that faces much the same problem as the monk.

Perhaps a hunter-sorcerer, as per aspects of the ranger?

 

[haiiro]

Thoughts?

have you considered publishing any of your revisions (or maybe already done so, and I missed it)? I'd think a collection of your revised classes would work well as a PDF -- or you could do each revision on its own in bit-sized PDFs. Put in some playtesting time (if you haven't already) and include the rationale behind your work, and you'd get my money.

 

[Khaalis]

Well, like I said I am reluctant to call it a sorcerous "priest". But what you presented, a sorcerer with Domains, could certainly work as a sorcerer with a deep connection to a religion or the like.

I guess ‘Divine Sorcerer’ would be a good term to reflect a sorcerer dedicated to a path or deity. What are your thoughts on the abilities they should gain? Is my suggested template sounding balanced?

I tend to think of spellcasters being defined primarily by their spell lists. A Druid's other abilities are mostly icing on the cake (and also partly to make up for the overall limited usefulness of the druid spell list, compared to many of the others).

See, and this is really where we differ. The spell list, IMHO, only helps to flesh out the details and the flavor of the class. Especially if working with Core PHB spells only. There are only a certain number of spells, and how they are mixed and matched into a list is only a small part of the class. To me, the Druid’s defining ability is Wild Shape. As a non-spell they can change shape. No other class has that ability. Just as a Barbarian’s defining ability is Rage.

So, I would have issue with having the "nature sorcerer" have full access to the Druid list. I would add in a few certain Druid spells, probably increasing some of them in level. Otherwise the nature sorcerer could become just as good a nature-caster as the druid, or nearly so (especially since Sorcerers already have access to a number of elemental and energy type spells that druids do not).

On this point I would have to argue. A nature sorcerer as I put it out there, would still never fulfill the place of a druid nor step on its toes being as good a nature caster as a druid. They still retain d4 HD, do not have the ability to traverse terrain as a druid does, don’t have the immunities, don’t have the ability to wild shape and still drastically lack in spell versatility. Keep in mind that the cost of the change is still costing the Sorcerer 1 spell known per level. Actually the more I look at it, I think the nature sorcerer actually takes a hit in power except for Intermediate BAB and Light Armor use. There aren’t THAT many druid spells that make the loss of a known spell per spell level worth the trade. However, without access to the Druid spells, it really isn’t a nature sorcerer.

Aside from that though, your nature sorcerer looks fine...although as I said to me on a taste level, the idea is somewhat redundant, mostly because I dont look at things along the arcane/divine line. To me the Druid already is the "nature mage".

As I said, the more I look at it, this is probably true. Though a sorcerer brought up in the wilderness should be able to reflect that in some way without the need to throw away levels on another class, in skills if nothing else. Perhaps it needs a slight change to add in Tracking and making it more Druid/Ranger friendly.

As for the Monk-sorcerer thing, your right it is rather diffacult. I was thinking in terms of some of the class abilities...immunities and the like...but that along with a combat ability bump would probably be too much.

Yes it would be way too much. Granted the Improved Unarmed feat does make sense as an alternative to the Martial Weapon gain in the standard Battle Sorcerer. It makes the touch attacks a much more useful line for that style of sorcerer.

I suppose one could have a combination of the battle sorcerer and the "priest" thing for a sort of paladin-sorcerer...but that faces much the same problem as the monk.

I specifically intended the ‘Divine Sorcerer’ concept to fill the Cleric/Paladin oriented sorcerer niche. Its too hard to mix the concept of the Paladin’s class abilities in any other way with the sorcerer.

Perhaps a hunter-sorcerer, as per aspects of the ranger?

This is really summed up in the Battle Sorcerer already, or better yet with what I was trying to do with the Nature Sorcerer.

Thus what you would get is the following:

Battle Sorcerer = Melee-Arcane Hybrid
Divine Sorcerer = Cleric/Paladin-Arcane Hybrid
Nature Sorcerer = Druid/Ranger-Arcane Hybrid
Stealth Sorcerer = Rogue-Arcane Hybrid

have you considered publishing any of your revisions (or maybe already done so, and I missed it)? I'd think a collection of your revised classes would work well as a PDF -- or you could do each revision on its own in bit-sized PDFs. Put in some playtesting time (if you haven't already) and include the rationale behind your work, and you'd get my money.

Heh! As much as I would love to do some sideline design and actually get “published” I wouldn’t even know where to begin with trying. Second of all its not like my ideas are truly “original” per say, though some of my true class designs, such as the Warlock and Skinwalker are. Most of the revisions like the Toolkit based rogue are simply nothing more than a tweak of what already exists, and or the addition of other materials than what’s in the core HB. Also I am always leery that what “I” think is balanced and a good idea, many others wont.

Add to this the new Dragon Magazine setup will be including a lot of alternate class material as well, such as this month’s Filidh wizard alternative, the Wild Defender ranger/paladin conversion, the Wild Monk druid/monk conversion, etc.

However, if you have other ideas/suggestions, feel free to let me know.

 

[Khaalis]

Summary to Date

So far the idea of expanding the battle sorcerer falls into a template expansion idea covering 4 concepts:

Battle Sorcerer = Melee-Arcane Hybrid
Divine Sorcerer = Cleric/Paladin-Arcane Hybrid
Nature Sorcerer = Druid/Ranger-Arcane Hybrid
Stealth Sorcerer = Rogue-Arcane Hybrid

Battle Sorcerer:
* Increase HD from d4 to d8
* Increase BAB to Intermediate
* Gain 1 new class skill: Intimidate
* Gain Martial Weapon Proficiency feat
* Gain Light Armor Proficiency feat
* Gain ability to cast in Light armor at no Arcane Spell Failure
Costs:
* Reduce spell slots by 1 per spell level
* Reduce spells known by 1 per spell level

Monk-like Variant Changes:
* Gain Improved Unarmed Strike instead of Martial Weapon Proficiency
* Gain Knowledge (religion) instead of Intimidate


Divine Sorcerer:
* Increase HD from d4 to d6
* Increase BAB to Intermediate
* Gain Light Armor Proficiency feat
* Gain ability to cast in Light armor at no Arcane Spell Failure
* Gain as class skills: Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (religion, planes)
* Gain 2 Cleric Domains, gaining the powers and access to the domain spells as part of the sorcerer’s spell list
Costs:
* Reduce spell slots by 1 per spell level
* Reduce spells known by 1 per spell level
* No familiar


Nature Sorcerer:
* Increase HD from d4 to d6
* Gain Light Armor Proficiency feat
* Gain ability to cast in Light armor at no Arcane Spell Failure
* Gain new class skills: Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Spot and Survival, and 4 skill points
* May learn Summon Nature’s Ally spells as if they were part of the sorcerer’s spell list
* Gain Animal Companion instead of Familiar
* Gain Track as a bonus feat
Costs:
* Reduce spell slots by 1 per spell level
* Reduce spells known by 1 per spell level


Stealth Sorcerer:
* Increase HD from d4 to d6
* Gain Light Armor Proficiency feat
* Gain ability to cast in Light armor at no Arcane Spell Failure
* Gain 6+INT skill points
* Gain as class skills: Appraise, Balance, Climb, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device and Use Rope.
Costs:
* Reduce spell slots by 1 per spell level
* Reduce spells known by 1 per spell level

Thoughts?

 

[Merlion]

I guess ‘Divine Sorcerer’ would be a good term to reflect a sorcerer dedicated to a path or deity. What are your thoughts on the abilities they should gain? Is my suggested template sounding balanced?

Actually, if it was me I'd let them also choose one or the other domain spell each level as an additional spell known.

See, and this is really where we differ. The spell list, IMHO, only helps to flesh out the details and the flavor of the class. Especially if working with Core PHB spells only. There are only a certain number of spells, and how they are mixed and matched into a list is only a small part of the class. To me, the Druid’s defining ability is Wild Shape. As a non-spell they can change shape. No other class has that ability. Just as a Barbarian’s defining ability is Rage.

This is a very interesting issue. In Arcana Unearthed, there is only a single spell list, and different classes have access to different levels of it. And, most of the spellcasters also have many unique class abilities (except the magister who's big deal is he has access to basically all the spells).

In DnD, each spellcaster gets a custom list. And some times some other abilities. Thats part of why I feel that in DnD, spell list is very important. A caster's role is largely decided by what spells he can cast.

That being said...I wouldnt neccesarilly limit your nature sorcerer to the SNA spells. I only objected to the idea of giving them total access to the druid list.

But, its probably fine as it is...and I didnt notice the Track feat so yea it has both druid and ranger aspects.

As I said, the more I look at it, this is probably true. Though a sorcerer brought up in the wilderness should be able to reflect that in some way without the need to throw away levels on another class, in skills if nothing else.

This is a drawback of DnD's rigid spell list system. It would be nice if their were feats to let you access other spells to a limited degree...although, like I said the casting classes in DnD have become so wedded to their spell lists, it might cause differentiation problems.


What your doing here is very interesting. I foresee DnD moving slowly towards more and more templating and custimization, and away from a rigid class system. It will always have classes (which is good) but I think it will become easier and easier to do more things with each class.

 

[FoxWander]

Battle Sorcerer:
* Increase HD from d4 to d8
* Increase BAB to Intermediate
* Gain 1 new class skill: Intimidate
* Gain Martial Weapon Proficiency feat
* Gain Light Armor Proficiency feat
* Gain ability to cast in Light armor at no Arcane Spell Failure
Costs:
* Reduce spell slots by 1 per spell level
* Reduce spells known by 1 per spell level

Monk-like Variant Changes:
* Gain Improved Unarmed Strike instead of Martial Weapon Proficiency
* Gain Knowledge (religion) instead of Intimidate

I think for the Monk-like variant you should drop the Light Armor proficiency, and matching ability to cast in it, in favor of the Monk's AC bonus. It should equal about the same armor class in the end and it's much more Monk-y. You might also drop Summon Familiar (which isn't in your list but, assuming from other discussions, is still an ability of the Battle Sorcerer variant- even though it doesn't fit with ANY sorcerer, really) in favor of the Stunning Fist ability.

 

[francisca]

have you considered publishing any of your revisions (or maybe already done so, and I missed it)? I'd think a collection of your revised classes would work well as a PDF -- or you could do each revision on its own in bit-sized PDFs. Put in some playtesting time (if you haven't already) and include the rationale behind your work, and you'd get my money.

Yeah! What he said! I have a couple of kingdoms in my homebrew that have outlawed arcane magic. The Battle Sorceror and this Stealth Sorcerer of yours make perfect sense for that situation.

 

[Khaalis]

I think for the Monk-like variant you should drop the Light Armor proficiency, and matching ability to cast in it, in favor of the Monk's AC bonus. It should equal about the same armor class in the end and it's much more Monk-y. You might also drop Summon Familiar (which isn't in your list but, assuming from other discussions, is still an ability of the Battle Sorcerer variant- even though it doesn't fit with ANY sorcerer, really) in favor of the Stunning Fist ability.

Some Good ideas and comments.


Contemplative Sorcerer:
* Increase HD from d4 to d8
* Increase BAB to Intermediate
* Gain 1 new class skill: Knowledge (religion)
* Gain Improved Unarmed Strike feat
* Gain Stunning Fist feat
* Gain the following:
AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the sorcerer adds their Wisdom bonus (if any) to their AC. In addition, they gain a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five sorcerer levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the sorcerer is flat-footed. They lose these bonuses when they are immobilized or helpless, when they wear any armor, when they carry a shield, or when they carry a medium or heavy load.

Costs:
* Reduce spell slots by 1 per spell level
* Reduce spells known by 1 per spell level
* No Familiar

Better?