D&D 5E Undying Warlock Among the Dead mechanics

[ECMO3]

I am thinking about playing a multiclassed Undying Warlock in a Strahd campaign. A couple things questions about the Among the Dead (text at bottom). Both of these questions have to do with an undead being immune if you "target it with an attack or harmful spell".

First there is nothing in here about your allies fighting it or you fighting its allies. So if I am surrounded by undead and I am attacking one of them, and my allies are attacking them. All of them except the one I personally am attacking would need to save to attack me correct?

Second if I throw an AOE like a fireball or something that would not "target" any of the undead so they would still need to save to attack or target me.

Am I reading this correct?

Among the Dead: Additionally, undead have difficulty harming you. If an undead targets you directly with an attack or a harmful spell, that creature must make a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC (an undead needn't make the save when it includes you in an area effect, such as the explosion of Fireball). On a failed save, the creature must choose a new target or forfeit targeting someone instead of you, potentially wasting the attack or spell. On a successful save, the creature is immune to this effect for 24 hours. An undead is also immune to this effect for 24 hours if you target it with an attack or a harmful spell.

 

[J-H]

First there is nothing in here about your allies fighting it or you fighting its allies. So if I am surrounded by undead and I am attacking one of them, and my allies are attacking them. All of them except the one I personally am attacking would need to save to attack me correct?

That's how I read it, although particularly intelligent undead (Strahd) could probably overcome this.

Second if I throw an AOE like a fireball or something that would not "target" any of the undead so they would still need to save to attack or target me.

Am I reading this correct?

I would not interpret it that way as a DM due to how easily it could be exploited.

 

[ECMO3]

I would not interpret it that way as a DM due to how easily it could be exploited.

I get that, but the flip side to this is Undying is a very weak subclass in general so making this one low level situational feature exploitive does not really unbalance things.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

First there is nothing in here about your allies fighting it or you fighting its allies. So if I am surrounded by undead and I am attacking one of them, and my allies are attacking them. All of them except the one I personally am attacking would need to save to attack me correct?

Yes, this. The undead can kill your allies without any difficulty though.

Second if I throw an AOE like a fireball or something that would not "target" any of the undead so they would still need to save to attack or target me.

Am I reading this correct?

That's how I would read it. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander: "an undead needn't make the save when it includes you in an area effect, such as the explosion of Fireball". You and the undead can sling fireballs at each other without this ability having any effect.

That's how I read it, although particularly intelligent undead (Strahd) could probably overcome this.

Strahd is hardly likely to fail the saving throw, but there are plenty of ways the undead can make life unpleasant for you without punching you in the face. "Now, you will watch whilst I turn your friends into my undead slaves. Mua ha ha ha."

 

[Dausuul]

I am thinking about playing a multiclassed Undying Warlock in a Strahd campaign. A couple things questions about the Among the Dead (text at bottom). Both of these questions have to do with an undead being immune if you "target it with an attack or harmful spell".

First there is nothing in here about your allies fighting it or you fighting its allies. So if I am surrounded by undead and I am attacking one of them, and my allies are attacking them. All of them except the one I personally am attacking would need to save to attack me correct?

You are correct. The text of the ability is quite clear. You, personally, must target the undead, personally, with an attack or spell before it can ignore AtD. (The fact that the language suggests "choosing another target" strongly implies that it is meant to be used in combat.)

Second if I throw an AOE like a fireball or something that would not "target" any of the undead so they would still need to save to attack or target me.

The wording of fireball actually refers to affected creatures as "targets." It's not clear why, and most AoE spells do not contain this language. I suspect it was an oversight.

That aside, I tend to agree with @Paul Farquhar on this one: If the undead can hit you with AoE spells and not have to make the save, then you can hit it with AoEs and not forfeit your protection. And since the text specifically calls out fireball as an example, I'd apply that ruling to fireball as well.

 

[Dausuul]

That's how I read it, although particularly intelligent undead (Strahd) could probably overcome this.

Strahd certainly can overcome it. He can use Legendary Resistance to auto-succeed on the save, and once he does, he's immune for 24 hours.

Of course, that means he's weakening his defenses against spells, while facing a known spellcaster. If he doesn't think that's a good tradeoff... that's his call. He can roll a saving throw like any other undead.

 

[aco175]

Is that a 'too good' power to have in a Ravenloft game? As a DM, I might want to outlaw or rule it another way to that campaign. Then again, it may be just tailoring your PC to fit the campaign similar to having a merman in a pirate/sea campaign.

 

[Mannahnin]

Strahd certainly can overcome it. He can use Legendary Resistance to auto-succeed on the save, and once he does, he's immune for 24 hours.

Of course, that means he's weakening his defenses against spells, while facing a known spellcaster. If he doesn't think that's a good tradeoff... that's his call. He can roll a saving throw like any other undead.

Yeah, I think it would be thematic as heck if he were to blow that save... and then just kill all the Undying's friends.

 

[Dausuul]

Is that a 'too good' power to have in a Ravenloft game? As a DM, I might want to outlaw or rule it another way to that campaign. Then again, it may be just tailoring your PC to fit the campaign similar to having a merman in a pirate/sea campaign.

I had a player with an Undying warlock in a strongly undead-themed campaign. Among the Dead was often helpful, but far from OP; even in that campaign, it did not compensate for the general suckitude of the Undying patron. It's not like you're reducing the amount of incoming fire, you're just deflecting it onto the other PCs.

Don't worry about the Undying warlock. Worry about the cleric and paladin.

 

[ECMO3]

I had a player with an Undying warlock in a strongly undead-themed campaign. Among the Dead was often helpful, but far from OP; even in that campaign, it did not compensate for the general suckitude of the Undying patron. It's not like you're reducing the amount of incoming fire, you're just deflecting it onto the other PCs.

This is my take too. It is a fairly weak subclass so if something is really good for this campaign it would not make the character OP overall.

I have played an Undying Warlock before. I multiclassed it with Shadow Sorcerer. When the campaign ended I was an Undying Warlock 7/Shadow Sorcerer 3. I think we only ran into undead twice in the whole campaign and I only used Among the Dead once. I used it so little I think it was a situation where the Ghoul attacked me and I said "wait I think I have something that he can't do that."

While the 1st level abilities are nothing to write home about, I do think the 6th level ability is pretty awesome, especially when combined with Armor of Agathys, Tomb of Levistus and on my multiclass strength of grave. That made it really hard to down my character. Since the death save comes at the begining of a turn you can even go down and still not lose a turn as long as you can roll a 10 or higher.